...people bashing the "Classic%" category of GTA IV & V.

"It's stupid. It has stupid rules. This is a speedrun, not a slowrun! Arbitrary this, arbitrary that."

Believe me, I see it enough.

The moment you do a "speedrun" and refuse to use the "cheats" which are there the moment you pop in the disc or install the game, you're refusing to use a part of the release which ¤may¤ save you time during the run. "Any%" is not actually "anything at your disposal can be used", at least for some or all of the GTA series.

For all of you that this pertains to, let's not be hypocrites anymore, ok?

(I'm also aware that everything I or anyone else posts in this thread will not change the way of thinking of someone that I would deem as an "ignorant hypocrite" because, well, a person who says something along the lines of "It's stupid. It has stupid rules. This is a speedrun, not a slowrun! Arbitrary this, arbitrary that." is likely too far gone to understand logic)

Except cheats were designed to break the rules of the game, hence why they're called cheats.

How is using a taxi the same as entering a cheat code?

What rule is stupid for Classic%, i dont get either. Older gtas didnt have taxis no no taxi is a normal thing for Classic% and for gta v mission fail skips.

So those who call them stupid are doing it wrong. But atleast our small gta v and IV group will continue to speedrun last 2 GTAs :)

Arbitrary- "based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system".

Let's not get caught up in the names of things. The idea that there are "rules of the game" is also not worth getting into because there are actually no "rules of the game". These are rules set up by a community, not the game designers.

S, what developer/designer told the pioneer(s) of GTA speedrunning that a cheat code is not allowed in the "Any%" category. Better yet, what developer/designer told the pioneer(s) of "speedrunning" that a cheat code is not allowed during the speedrun? This never occurred. It's the community who wrote the rules and therefore, it is just as arbitrary as not allowing a taxi in an offshoot category. It's simply the strong foundation of "speedrunning" which makes a person think otherwise.

When you get into what "breaking the game" really means, you're instantly digging yourself into a hole, as it's all a matter of opinion. If the only way to get out of this hole is to stop stating ideas and reasoning based on opinion, then you'd have to completely end the conversation on "breaking the game". We can all get tangled up in "did the developer intend for this to happen?", "can we exploit bugs?", "can we exploit glitches?", etc., but it's all useless as the point of this thread was simply to bring to light that it's all "arbitrary" in one way or another and how arbitrary it really is is left up to a person's opinion.

One thing I'm left thinking about at this moment is why duplication glitching is allowed in Vice City and III. Is it because the developers didn't intend for these things to happen within their game? Regardless of whether or not the developers intended for these things to happen, does it not still "break the game" in the same way a cheat code ¤may¤? Do we really know if the developers intended for these duplication glitches to happen? Probably not, but it doesn't matter. So, should I be left with the belief that if the developer intended for something to be used within the game, which leads to an outcome that could be considered "breaking the game", then it shouldn't be allowed? Come on people, do you not see how silly it is to continue to think down upon a category when the category you ¤may¤ be running is just as f¤cked up in it's rules?

Cheat codes were placed in the game's code to be used. Taxis were placed in the game's code to be used. You are not forced to use either. Both are equally easy to use. A taxi makes the speedrun easier and faster, a cheat code makes the speedrun easier and faster. Depending on the game, the level that a cheat code impacts the game differs. You can disallow certain cheat codes and allow others, or you can disallow/allow all cheat codes. It's equally arbitrary as there's just as much of a system behind one idea as there is another.

Let's not forget, isn't "speedrunning" just a showcase of one's skill? It is.

Major League Baseball in the U.S., rule 1.10, regarding bats. http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/official_rules/objectives_1.jsp

Summary: The bat shall be a smooth, round stick not more than 23/4 inches in diameter at the thickest part and not more than 42 inches in length. The bat shall be one piece of solid wood. NO EXCEPTIONS!!!

Are there not other types of bats which would help the player hit the ball further? Make it easier to hit the ball further? I understand that there are many reasons for having this rule and it's a necessary rule to have, but, people, the showcasing of one's skill occurs in all walks of life, behind sets of rules, rules that make the final goal more challenging. It's not that I'm actually upset or angered by what led me to create this thread. It's more that I'm dumbfounded that people still bring this up on streams and in chats, exposing their ignorance, and it's led me to final create a post on the topic. The point of this thread and all of my posts is simply to end the hypocrisy and to remind some people that "rules" exist in all walks of life. Speedrunning is no exception and shouldn't be. End the hypocrisy and quit with the hate.

Rules of a game are imposed by the bit of code. Alter the code ==> alter the rules.

[quote]S, what developer/designer told the pioneer(s) of GTA speedrunning that a cheat code is not allowed in the "Any%" category. Better yet, what developer/designer told the pioneer(s) of "speedrunning" that a cheat code is not allowed during the speedrun? This never occurred. It's the community who wrote the rules and therefore, it is just as arbitrary as not allowing a taxi in an offshoot category. It's simply the strong foundation of "speedrunning" which makes a person think otherwise. [/quote] None of them, but a simple dictionary search of the word "cheat" and it becomes apparent that the codes which are specifically called "cheats" in the game are in fact, cheats. Taking a taxi in GTA4 won't put a fancy 'cheats' menu on your phone, nor will taking a taxi in GTA:VC pop up the big message "CHEAT ACTIVATED" in the top left corner, or decrease the criminal rating in the game towards a negative level called "Cheater", or put up a warning message before saving about cheating, or put an extra item in the Stats screen called "times cheated". Again, a simple dictionary search and it's apparent that by definition, these were put in the game (for reasons unknown) to break the original rules of the game (unless the game is about cheating, which we assume it isn't). Glitches like the replay glitch or game features like a taxi warp, follow the rules of the game and aren't breaking them.

Sure, both cheat codes and taxi warps are achieved by executing the same gigabytes worth of code, but one is accompanied by a "Cheater!" message, the other isn't. Sure, "no cheats" might still be arbitrary, but it's a whole lot less arbitrary than the 4 rules imposed ON TOP OF THAT by classic%.

Speaking of dictionaries, here is a dictionary definition of arbitrary: "based on random choice or personal whim, rather than any reason or system." And here is one for shit: "something worthless; rubbish; nonsense. unpleasant experiences or treatment." Source: Google's define feature. Clearly, these two definitions are not the same. I recommend you tell whoever is calling you out for running an 'arbitrary' category that there is nothing wrong in doing so. 3D era runners have to put up with people begging for GTA5, Im sure classic% runners can put up with people begging for any% :D

Now, to come up with a possible solution to everyone's pains: Change the damn name of the category already. There's nothing 'classic' about it.

These are the additional limitations on 'classic%' runs over any% runs, and why there is nothing classic about them: autosave disabled, (GTA2 autosaves after completion of a map and keeps the next one unlocked until you remove the automatically made savefile. Alternatively, trip skip in GTASA can be considered somewhat of an autosave) vehicle density 33%, (Traffic manipulation (both spawning and despawning) is a thing in GTA3, San Andreas and even in Vice City) no fast travel via taxi service, (Looking at GTA:VC here) no video editor warp. (The replay system feature has been abused in GTA:3 since at least april 3rd, 2007.)

The name of the category is more arbitrary than the category itself (why is there a % sign?) and is most likely what is causing most of the bullshitting.

Oh, and the fact that classic% people seem to be doing exactly that what the the masses are/were complaining about: long and useless driving sections in SA & 4, and 'crappy boatlike' driving physics in GTA4. (This one's a bit harder to solve, but since people who don't like long driving with 'boatphysics' most likely aren't interested in classic% anyway, I say send them the same way as gta5 beggars: Banhammer Hell)