Emulator ban: Mesen
3 years ago
Västra Götaland, Sweden

Hi,

The mod team has decided to ban the emulator Mesen because of a potential run ahead feature, listed here: https://www.mesen.ca/docs/configuration/emulation.html. "Run ahead allows the reduction of input lag by the number of frames specified. CPU requirements increase proportionally with the number of run ahead frames specified."

We've noticed other boards for speedgames ban it too and we'd like to implement a ban across all NES ninja gaidens as well.

All currently submitted runs done with Mesen will be approved, but future submissions will be rejected

ShuriBear likes this
Québec

By how much can the run-ahead feature reduce the input lag compared to typical NES emulation, and then by how much compared to your typical CRT setup? : o

Russia

To runs, the best two emulators are Mesen and Nestopia, but Nestopia has no output inputs, which makes it in some ways not very legit. In Mesen, the "Run Ahead" function is disabled by default, in other emulators there are also many contradictory functions, in the TAS editor type, overclocking in the processor, and others, but for some reason all the idiots, starting with the SMB moderators, emphasized its presence in the emulator. Let's ban emulators altogether and not introduce such contradictory rules.You don't offer alternatives, just stupidly banned one of the best emulators again, but still allow runs on the same bad FCEUX, which is only suitable for working with tas.

Destroerwow, PakLomak and 2 others like this

I suggest disabling all emulators that work fine. Let's leave the emulators that can't be played on. I suggest everyone buy consoles. If there is no console - do not play -_- Are you just afraid that you might be overtaken on an emulator?

PakLomak and TGR like this
Västra Götaland, Sweden

@NeoKad not really sure how much it saves in NG but the feature will make it really hard to determine if it was even used or not. Been reading through this thread and following the discussion here for SMB1: https://www.speedrun.com/smb1/thread/5koox/

NeoKad likes this
Vermont, USA

If you're truly worried about it, people can be asked to capture their settings live before runs to confirm it's disabled (set to zero). Took me a good few mins to even find the setting >_> But yeah, would take a few secs before any given run/set of runs to show the emulation settings are set to default.

Having to do it before every run would 100% be tedious - but ultimately if one were truly concerned it was in effect, they could simply load the rom in the same version of Mesen and play a sequence with each setting on it for frame by frame comparisons if needed.

Does this affect the input display option in Mesen? Could one tell if this run-ahead was not zero based on that?

Ultimately, seems like y'all want to just avoid potential drama happening here rather than keep a viable emulator available to runners. I mean, it's kinda silly that existing Mesen runs are okay, but new ones are expected to include cheaters because it's a problem in some games. Cheaters will find another way to cheat.

Here's probably the best compromise I can devise: Have the settings be shown AFTER a run. PB? Show your settings. WR? Definitely show your settings. People will still figure out how to cheat even this if they're determined to cheat, but would be less of a PITA than showing settings before every run.

If you have to be super particular - have them switch to "display capture" then showing the menus on the emulator the run shows completed in, you can see them open the emulation settings in the emulator window.

Again, all this seems to be putting superficial hoops up for honest runners to jump through that a cheater will still figure a way around.

lexikiq and NeoKad like this
Québec

(Thank you for your reply @Backslash !) Anyway, from what I've seen in the SMB1 thread, this feature seems to cause problems when it's put all the way to the lowest amount of lag/the highest setting. For that reason, I think it'd be a good idea to only allow this feature to be enabled for 1-2 frames at most, since this is the average difference between emulation setups and CRT setups.

I also did a bit of testing using the latest version of Mesen, and while playing Ninja Gaiden III (U), things - most notably the screen's scrolling - only started to look a bit off starting with 3 frames of run ahead ^^

I think that a 1, maybe 2-frame limit - along with Vria's suggestion of a mandatory showcase of those settings at the end of each PB/WR - would be perfect. Not everyone has access to original hardware or original carts, and because of that it's sad that some people have an input lag disadvantage from the start. I think it would be potentially AMAZING to bridge the gap between console and emu to make things more accessible and balanced for everyone! Cause here's the thing: even if there is other options for emulation in order to make this community more open in an age of dying consoles, a good bunch of emulators have been accepted despite being known to be somewhat innaccurate, such as FCEUX. So even then...even if this feature is ultimately deemed to render those NES games too different from their original source - consoles - why should we ban one of the most accurate emus around simply for having an optional feature?

I'm sorry for this big wall of text, but I genuinely feel like we're not only missing something great with this ban, but also removing one of the best emus around - with an easy fix to this issue, as well!

Västra Götaland, Sweden

"So even then...even if this feature is ultimately deemed to render those NES games too different from their original source - consoles - why should we ban one of the most accurate emus around simply for having an optional feature?"

For me personally (not speaking for other mods here) it's just that it creates more work/headaches and things to look out for in submissions. Removing it will get rid of at least one of those parameters. Bizhawk is still allowed and one of the better emulators out there to my knowledge. FCEUX might not be cycle accurate but is still a good emulator all around.

I've read the stuff about showing the settings and stuff after submissions. Is that reasonable to expect from runners? I'm personally fine with maybe changing it to that in the future if both the runners and the people verifying are willing to go through that. We're a very small mod team across all the games and we're still looking for more people 😃

NeoKad likes this
Québec

Well if I were a mod of the series I'd be okay with that since it shouldn't take too long to check if that makes sense ^^ But I get that other people are busier than me, too : P Anyway yes you're right that there's still a bunch of other decent options for emulation around (Bizhawk is especially robust!) but I still think it's somewhat unfair, you know? ;-;

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