Adding ms for sub-16
3 years ago
Netherlands

This game has seen a bit more activity recently, with someone else getting a sub-16 time! Seeing that the current top times are really close to each other, and seem to closely approach what's possible right now, it brings up the following option: adding ms to the time.

There's one run I haven't verified yet, but that would make for a shared first place if I don't include it. If I do so, the standings would remain unchanged.

I'd like to hear from others before deciding. Do you have a preference for ms or no ms? Thanks in advance!

Behemoth87 and spyriel like this
Netherlands

Update: as of just now it's no longer a tied WR, so for the time being this question is less urgent. Still, let me know what you think!

England

Yes adding ms seems logical at this stage, and congrats to spyriel for the recent new wrs !

I'm kinda interested to see if spyriel or anyone thinks there's any time savers left in this game ? I know when I made the TAS I didn't bother exploring the possibilities of having the circling star things or multiples of them toward the end of the run. Though it also seems like they could be a big nuisance in a run having them interfering with our attacks.

Edited by the author 3 years ago
spyriel and janglestorm like this
Etelä-Karjala, Finland

ty behemoth and im thinking the same that sub16 should have MS in. :)

Also i did find some small things here and there, but nothing realy big considering the good RNG that you can save some time.

Stage 1 where you want to delay a bit. you can actually just go fast as you can and jump grab the orb that kills all the enemys without getting bad drop. ( i dont know was this a thing anyways hehe)

last stage after second spell and when you go to the wall that has the bell in. After the wall starts to collapse you can actually time your jump and grab the bell like 0.5 faster (atleast).

Other then these that i remember there is just execution and RNG differences. Like in japan you can have realy good rng that you can just tank trough the part where are these dudes that attacks you with some short of whip or so. lol

janglestorm and Behemoth87 like this
England

Ah yes i think I'm familiar with all those time savers. Avoiding unwanted drops in this game is definitely a small hurdle I wasn't expecting when i got round to doing runs few years back :D Keeping knives until level 3 boss is vital.

The bell in the wall jump in stage 5 I remember being quite difficult to get consistently so I didn't bother with it in runs in the end, and the stage 3 thing really could be RNG, dependent on how well the earlier parts of the level went.

I'll put this here just as a reference, in the hopes of finding something else. This run gets a 15:10 or something but it does have something missing right off the bat that I noticed just now that I did in my pb: Not grabbing the wall when collecting the bell in the waterfalI. Other than that there could be other things missing because I made the TAS well before doing those attempts and probably found some more minor stuff in that period. It achieves a low 15 due to frame advanced perfect gameplay but I'd like to see a seasoned TAS maker actually do one for this game. I was a novice when I did mine and although I went through at a snails pace scrutinizing as much as I could and used frame advance for everything I still wonder if there's some secrets that a pro would've been able to spot.

janglestorm and spyriel like this
Etelä-Karjala, Finland

cool. i already found a human possible things here :P Stage 1 without the food is kind of risk in my opinion :D but possible and i was thinking it. Also tanking in stage 2 with low health would be big time save. Also most of the risky tas starts would need some what good rng resulting lots of resets, but thats the way it should go anyways if you go for all the starts.

Anyway, there is lot to imrove in this run that can be added, but its gona be risky.

Ty behemoth for showing this and pointing out this stuff to us and i wish we will see you back to this somepoint in your speedrun career. :)

I might try to imrove for 15:52/3 or something in future

Thanks <3

Behemoth87 likes this
Netherlands

Really good to read these responses! Thanks to both for your input, and also to Behemoth for the additional info. I'm definitely compelled to get back to this and eliminate the safeties I currently take - hopefully I can find a moment soon-ish. I'll make sure to add ms to both your times when I get back home.

Behemoth87 and spyriel like this
Etelä-Karjala, Finland

Looking forward to that janglestorm :) Ty aswell to making this happen <3

England

Yeah each jumps costs a few frames if I remember correctly, and attacking while jumping adds a few more so i optimised the TAS to jump as little as possible, often cutting health to very fine levels, and yeah the food basket in the waterfall proved to be a real challenge to ignore it in actual runs.

Indeed most games end up relying on heavy rng/resets in order to push it as far as it can go. I remember the goal of sub 16 resting heavily on the stage 1 boss giving the good pattern. While not especially uncommon it was about as far as resetting as I was willing to make in this fun but pretty obscure game. My sum of best apparantly was 15:53 when i finished but i'm not sure personally if a few seconds means that much to me, nor do I have the time currently to really look into it without being overwhelmed at the moment.

If something somewhat significant could get found I might be compelled to jump back in next year.

[edit] After the watching the TAS a bit it seems some of the larger time saves are ignoring food baskets and getting a lucky grenade drop in level 4 springing to mind the most. There's also something on the final boss. The game gives you a generous amount of time to swing your sword during those two first phases and the Demon King's eyes will pop out after a number of swings. So when making the TAS I saved time by reducing lag not swinging the sword all the way until the mouth closes each time.

A very small time loss on your run I noticed was on the last bell ring on the train you can hug the wall/pillar when you ring it. In your run you had a bit of unecessary distance.

I'll keep looking for more stuff.

[edit2] I did 25 sword swings on each of the first two phases, now assuming that's the minimum amount (memory is hazy on whether I actually calculated it exactly at the time or whether I swung a few more for good measure)) the boss needs 50 swings for eyes to pop out. Maybe it's possible to swing to your hearts content in first phase and then cut the swing number shorter in the second for the same result of lag reduction ? Like 30/20. Again that's assuming the boss works this way at all. Also it's hard to swing optimally in the lag but hopefully aggressive button mashing overrides this problem, then it's just a case of trying to count the sword swings.

Edited by the author 3 years ago
janglestorm and spyriel like this
Etelä-Karjala, Finland

Realy good stuff.

I actually tested the basket strat yesterday and started to get it fairly concistent, all tho its still a risk.

Also i tested stage too with more agressive tanking and that seems to save time aswell over my pb.

So to say, most time saves still comes for optimized movemend like you said. these things add maby -2 over my pb.

Also i missed the so said quick kill that you do in final boss that adds another 0.8 or so.

i should be aple to get at least low 15:50 maby sub15:50 but it ebds up for good rng.

Oh yea, first stage has also some minor saves like doing those jumps right in the end where the basket is.

I will try to improve my time a bit at least..

ty behemoth for pointing out this again. higly apreciated man :)

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