Hey! In the beginning there was a lot of disdain for any% in this game, considering weapon swap routes are faster than charge shot routes and a lot of runners don't want to get carpal tunnel. I want to suggest an any% glitchless category!
This category, at this point wouldn't allow boss freezes, and would require you to have charge shot equipped during boss stages at all times, so weapon swap glitch can't be used.
Thoughts?
I kind of like the idea, but I am not 100% sure Swap should be considered as a glitch... it was probably not intended but I don't see it as a glitch.
Also, the requirement could be something like no glitchess no swap shot... but you shouldn't be required to use charge shot either (I mean it can be faster of course but I don't think it should be a requirement)
I second this. I'm not sure we'd need a rule to make people equip charge shot but having 'glitchless' as an option that can apply to any of the existing categories would be a good idea in my opinion. That or literally an 'any% glitchless' category. I realise All Bosses is sort of a another solution to glitched vs glitchless problem, and it's a good solution, but I personally have been avoiding a full-length run cos of how much trying to pull it off f¤¤¤s up my hands and I'm sure I'm not alone in that. The mods are right to not wanna make the leaderboard confusing but if we could just have 'glitchless' as a modifier (much like co-op and solo are for example) for the categories we already have, then I think that would avoid making things too complicated AND let people who can't/don't want to mash the weapon change button for 30+mins compete on the boards for the best time.
The only problem I see with adding more modifiers is getting too many. There's benn a lot of talk about adding Any% Expert, so theoretically, you'd have Any% - Solo, Expert, Glitchless which is just messy
The reason I suggested one of the equipped weapons needing to be charge shot is that it is the only weapon that, if it isn't equipped, allows for not using weapon swap, allows using other weapons too, and makes plane fights where weapon swap is somewhat required (like bird) a lot less of a hassle. I definitely think it needs consideration.
Also, this is only a problem in boss fights, so just "one of your weapons equipped in boss fights needs to be charge shot" should fix it mainly. Would make a good 'play the game as somewhat intended' category
Salmon, not all of those would need to be main categories, lets see which ones are people more interested in... Also, it wouldn't be the first game with so many variables, look at SM or SMW for example.
If they are a "thing" but not really run by a lot of people a lot of those could be sent to Misc IMHO
Personally I am waiting for the categories that include beating all the platforming levels, I would really like to see a category that includes beating all bosses and all run and gun without needing to get all of the coins... this would probably be too much to ask anyway as I might be the only one interested in something like this... could be called something like "all levels"
Super metroid doesn't have many variables iirc. In any% and hundo, you specify the route you take, which doesn't affect the category's objectives. Under low% I assume there's 2 categories but not subcategories. GT code runs maybe has with and without space time. This is all neatly organised last I checked -- they worked pretty hard on it.
SMW on the other hand I think is not an example for a great leaderboards. There are too many categories and variables (ones that do affect the categorys objective. See: 11 exit) and no matter what they do, not everyone can be 100% satisfied.
Cuphead so far seems to be a nightmare to categorise due to the many gameplay options and the fact that a lot of them seem to be at least somewhat popular.
That being said, my advice is, before adding any categories, wait for someone to actually have completed a run. Nothing is stopping anyone from running the category they like even if it's not currently on the boards.
I'm not gonna lie and say I understand completely how the WSG works but I think it's more of an exploit than a glitch, and it would be such ambiguous rules, like "Remember to not change weapons too fast by accident", if I start with the peashooter and change to spread when I'm close to the boss, wouldn't that count as a "glitch"?
Well, if you swap the weapon once it doesn't really matter, if you spam the swap button right in front of the boss you clearly are doing WSG...
In any case I agree with it could lead to an ambiguous ruling.
Thudermustache, yeah thats what I was exactly refering to in SM... it might not be many variables but it is a lot of categories and it can be well organized as you mention so I don't think that a well organized LB with many categories can definitely be accomplished.
Way to go fireb0rn :>
NMG having no WSE works me. We always joke about save+quit being a glitch in alttp because it's disallowed in NMG categories, but in the end, nobody cares (except Naegleria, definately expect him if you have badly defined categories since he likes to troll hehe). I do agree with the part that WSE is responsible for many of the glitches, therefore banning it does makes a lot of sense to me.
What bugs me though is -- and sorry if I'm being stubborn -- I actually don't think the boss freezes should be considered to be major glitches. In my definition, a major glitch should allow you to skip large sections of the game, or even the entire thing. I'd argue that skipping part of a level is definately minor compared to something like the weird file select stuff, if it actually wrote progress on the new file. I know that's not the case (yet), but if something else much more broken than bosses were to come up and we'd want to ban it, we'd have to specifically ban that glitch. Then what if something else comes up on top of that? I'm speculating but, to avoid having to re-evaluate/redefine the categories, I think NMG would be best kept to remedy those cases.
I can't really think of a better alternative other than 'glitchless'.
how is it a glitch? its an exploit, not a glitch, and it isnt even major, its just using the way the game handles switching weapons to your advantage. if you want to make a category without a trick that saves a ton of time on the bosses, have fun with your category that no one will run because its easy to do and saves a not-insignificant amount of time. its an incredibly simple trick to do, that isnt even breaking the game in any way, its just using the way the game works to your advantage. if any of you had ever speedrun any game ever you would know that speedrunning isn't about making 45 different categories so you can have your wr, its about beating the game as fast as possible, and making extremely arbitrary restrictions just makes people who would otherwise be interested in the run leave because...theres extremely arbitrary restrictions that dont make any sense whatsoever.
Are people weapon swapping with Macros or physically doing it by hand on a controller? Because fuck macros I did swap by smashing the hell out of the buttons. But completely disregarding it as a viable method for running is totally ridiculous. It's like disregarding goldeneye speedruns because someone R-Leaned or Door Warped.
One thing that discourages me from boss runs is WSG. I'm not keen to using macros to speedrun, since I think it defeats the purpose, but if WSG runs end up being the norm (as in, the most popular way the game will be played), there's a high chance that I will resort to macros since I don't consider spamming the same button 100% of the time something that takes any skill, it's just stupid.
again, if you'd ever seen a speedrun before you'd realize that almost every games speedrun has something that isn't really skill based and is just stupid. cuphead is no exception. it just comes with the territory of running games that some shit is just annoying to do. it is what it is.
that being said, i really don't think it isn't at all skill based. it takes timing and practice to be able to do consistently.
I agree with that, I was just saying what I would do. I believe speedrunning is about extremes. There are optimizations, there are strats, there are routes but there are also glitches and exploits. WSG isn't any different from what I've seen / done in other games. I just don't like the brain-dead smashing part of it, but I think it SHOULD be allowed.
At the same time, not everyone has the same age / body, so some people might be put off byt the physical aspect of it, which may not be a problem for some, but might for others. I myself would tike to avoid the strain, but "being unhealthy" is not a good argument against WSG. You know what else is not healthy? Speedrunning the same game sitting in front a computer for 5 hours. It's a choice.
How are people who are using WSE using it? Are you using a controller or a keyboard? How do you have your buttons mapped? I ask because I kept shoot on (X) while Weapon Switch is on RB. This is actually quite comfortable for my hands and so far I haven't felt much hand strain even after a couple of runs back to back. Then again I'm probably not being super optimal and mashing as hard as I can. I still have a lot of time I can save by just NOT dying on bosses before I have to worry about WSE optimization.
I just thought I would share how I have it set-up in case it helped others perform the trick more comfortably. I use an Xbox One controller on the PC version of the game.
[quote]This is a very odd argument you've made my man. It's not a choice currently, hence our discussion.[/quote] My argument has nothing to do with having a separate no-WSG category, I'm just saying "being unhealthy" is not an argument for anything because people have the choice to do unhealthy things.
btw, I have no idea how to quote on this forum, I just manually inserted the tag.
