[section=Preface] This thread is the result of a lengthy discussion in the Ori speedrun discord. The goal of this first post is to attempt to compile all of the points that have been made in favor of and against mouse wheel binding in an unbiased manner and provide a poll. Thus, this first post should not be seen as a post from myself, but as a compilation of different community voices. Any following posts made by me will be the expression of my personal opinion.

[section=Background] The Definitive Edition of Ori included the ability to rebind keys via the KeyRebindings.txt file. This file enables the user to bind keys to various mouse and keyboard buttons, as well as bind multiple actions to one key and multiple keys to one action. The mouse wheel, however, is not able to be bound through this file alone. Some time ago, it was decided by the community that binding the mouse wheel via 3rd party software (Xmouse, Logitech Gaming Software, etc.) would be allowed. It is unclear all of the factors that led to this decision, but it is remembered by most to be related to the double-bash-heavy route at the time and the natural ease mouse wheel lends to the trick. It was also noted that the concept of "it's impossible to verify," was brought up as a significant factor in the original decision.

[section=New Proposal] Mouse wheel should not be permitted. Existing runs on the leaderboard that used mouse wheel would be "grandfathered" in rather than be removed.

[section=Reasons For] [big]¤[/big] The primary reason for the proposal is that it is not allowed by the game. Mouse wheel is not bindable via the KeyRebindings.txt file, and using external software to make it possible should not be allowed. It is a slippery slope to allow external software.

[big]¤[/big] The mouse wheel has been likened to the "turbo" function of some controllers where, once activated, one could simply press one button to perform multiple actions. While each tick of the scroll wheel does indeed correspond to a single input, some argued that it is still one action being performed by the player (scrolling the wheel) to result in multiple, sequential inputs.

[big]¤[/big] The original concept of "it's not verifiable" should not have ever been considered a factor. There are many forms of cheating that are not easily verifiable (or verifiable at all), and it is not a good reason to allow something questionable. "Just because you can't prove cheating doesn't mean you shouldn't ban it."

[big]¤[/big] Mouse wheel was only allowed to make TAS-level strats easier, not to level the playing field between input devices or anything similar. Removing the mouse wheel might make a few things slower, but it would conform to the game's bindings and not make any large tricks suddenly "impossible" (simply more difficult).

[big]¤[/big] Controller rebinds via external software were allowed in order to give controllers the same rebinding ability of keyboard and mouse. Rebinds were also allowed to assist runners who could not use a keyboard & mouse setup due to physical conditions (such as a Repetitive Stress Injury). They have no place in this discussion and should not be seen as a valid parallel.

[section=Reasons Against] [big]¤[/big] The mouse wheel is a standard function of the mouse and should be bindable just like any other button. Using 3rd party software to do so is just fixing a problem that should've never existed from the game in the first place.

[big]¤[/big] Allowing the mouse wheel only pushes the best time lower and lower. Anything that can be done physically should be allowed if it makes the run faster. The external software is only being used to allow a bind, not perform any additional actions automatically (e.g. a macro).

[big]¤[/big] Several runners have been using mouse wheel for a long time now and have become accustomed to it. Removing it would force these runners to rewrite a lot of muscle memory and might cause them to instead abandon the game.

[big]¤[/big] Controller rebinds are also not permitted by the game. There is a ControllerRebindings.txt file, but it unfortunately does nothing (it is unclear if this was intended or a problem with the game). So far they have been permitted via external software. If one is against allowing the mouse wheel, shouldn't they also be against controller rebinds? There is a clear parallel here.

[section=Current Steps] Please vote in a general poll here: http://www.strawpoll.me/12714241 . This is not a final decision, but just a poll to get some rough numbers. Please feel free to continue adding your points as responses to this thread.

I understand all of the arguments, and there are many valid points for both sides. However, I don't see what banning the mouse wheel would accomplish. It forces the runners who use it to relearn most of their muscle memory, when it really doesn't affect the run that much (seconds at most). All this is doing is making ori more difficult and less user-friendly overall for kbm runners.

I do not agree with changing it mostly because I am way too lazy to learn to learn to do the run without the wheel binding so I'd probably just end up quitting this game or running categories where it's not really used (not a lot).

I would maybe just continue running it with the wheel bind now that I think about it since I don't really care about the leaderboard. What is important to me in speedrunning is self-improvement and I believe that people view speedrunning in the wrong way in this community but that's just my point of view (I highly dislike competition).

There is a clear line drawn in the current rules -- anything you can do physically is allowed. Any software rebinds that trigger without delay are allowed. Injecting delays between commands via software is not allowed, either as a bind to do a sequence of inputs or repeat an input at some frequency (a turbo button).

Mousewheel is a convenient physical way of trigger multiple inputs quickly. A mousewheel is not a turbo button as there is a different physical input occuring for each click. If you ban mousewheel, you're moving into a fuzzy area of what else to ban -- what if I wrap a keyboard around a wheel and roll it across my desk when I want to mash? What if I build a Rube Goldberg machine to roll a ball over a keyboard and mash a bunch of buttons for me? It's clear where these fall under the current rules (they'd be allowed), but not clear if mousewheel is banned... how do you quantify how ridiculous a hardware setup has to be before you don't allow it? As I see it, banning mousewheel would only serve to open the gates to more contrived ways of achieving the same results.

The main argument Jhobz left out of the above, is that we've come to a point where the mouse wheel lets us do things that are otherwise humanly impossible. We allowed mouse wheel binds to make inputs EASIER. It was for convenience. It allowed a lot of runners to get consistent double-bashes, and later on, consistent door warps.

But now it's being used to do TAS-like Spirit Flame inputs. It's letting people kill enemies without slowing down in a way that's humanly impossible. It's giving Ginso boss cycles that are humanly impossible. Sure, it's just a couple seconds, but you all know how competitive the times are. If you're going for a top spot on the leaderboard, you need every second you can get. That makes mouse wheel binds mandatory, doing something that was never intended, and we never intended when we ruled in favor of them.

¤ "The original concept of "it's not verifiable" should not have ever been considered a factor. There are many forms of cheating that are not easily verifiable (or verifiable at all), and it is not a good reason to allow something questionable. "Just because you can't prove cheating doesn't mean you shouldn't ban it.""

This is a completely loaded statement in that it implies rebinding keys is a "form of cheating". I'll never understand the notion of any 1-to-1 key rebinding being "cheating" when you can literally plug in any input device and have all of your binds remapped automatically. It might remap wasd to a dpad, or to a joystick, or to maybe a DDR pad or a steering wheel, maybe even to an apparatus of Rockband drum pedals, or to a scroll wheel. Each input device is going to have advantages/disadvantages over others in specific aspects of gameplay, but no video game platform, especially not PC, has 1 single input device that has to be used to play a game. Maybe if this was a console game you could try to invoke the "official hardware" argument, but this argument is even weaker on PC where there is no "official hardware". I can use whatever hardware I want, and I don't have any responsibility to disclose which hardware I'm using to anyone, nor if I'm using software to facilitate 1-to-1 rebinds to other input devices(i.e. from keyboard to mousewheel) simply to use other hardware.

Sigma is right; trying to ban 1 piece of hardware is a slippery slope when people will simply use other hardware to achieve a similar result. Trying to call using different hardware cheating is not a very compelling argument when there isn't one single piece of hardware for feeding inputs into any console.

¤ "Mouse wheel was only allowed to make TAS-level strats easier, not to level the playing field between input devices or anything similar. Removing the mouse wheel might make a few things slower, but it would conform to the game's bindings and not make any large tricks suddenly "impossible" (simply more difficult)."

I don't find this argument to be particularly persuasive either when the notion of difficulty is purely subjective. I've speedran a number of platformers before and use a similar key configuration for each one to make the same fingers do similar actions across games. Even in vanilla when there was no keyconfig.txt, I just remapped my keyboard keys in my registry so I could play a hybrid style with both hands on the keyboard for the majority of the run. This makes playing the game easier for me since it is what I'm used to, but if you tried to use my binds when you're used to using a game's default mappings it would be harder for you. Does this make you more skilled than me because you use the game's default binds whereas I rebound mine because of my experience running similar platformers? Should I conform to the game's input configuration limitations and fight my intuition and muscle memory every step of the way to level the playing between me and a less experienced speedrunner who has to do no such thing? If those aren't your reasons for trying to prohibit rebinds/alternate hardware then what are? Something as simple and dogmatic as "the game doesn't allow it" doesn't really fly when the game doesn't even know which input device you're using nor how your bindings are mapped on it in the first place.

¤ "¤ Allowing the mouse wheel only pushes the best time lower and lower. Anything that can be done physically should be allowed if it makes the run faster. The external software is only being used to allow a bind, not perform any additional actions automatically (e.g. a macro)."

This is really the only point that matters. Using macros turns your run into a tool-assisted speedrun; 1-to-1 rebinds and alternate input devices do not.

¤ "Several runners have been using mouse wheel for a long time now and have become accustomed to it. Removing it would force these runners to rewrite a lot of muscle memory and might cause them to instead abandon the game."

This point isn't entirely accurate, at least not in my case. I would probably wouldn't abandon the game entirely but I certainly would stop submitting submitting my runs to the leaderboards, and not because I don't feel like getting used to playing the game differently. I don't feel the need nor the desire to compete with a community that propagates something as asinine as using 1-to-1 rebinds/alternate input devices makes a speedrun tool-assisted.

"But now it's being used to do TAS-like Spirit Flame inputs. It's letting people kill enemies without slowing down in a way that's humanly impossible. It's giving Ginso boss cycles that are humanly impossible."

This is simply factually incorrect. Turbo-speed mashing is ¤not¤ humanly impossible. There are plenty of other input devices that make fast mashing easier aside from the scroll wheel. I've seen 32hz mashing performed on a hitbox using a technique that uses 8 fingers on the same input, which is even faster than turbo. Could do the same thing on a controller if you put it somewhere that it won't be able to move around without holding it while you mash.

I personally am finding the majority of arguments being brought up to be either only tangentially relevant to the discussion or not a valid argument in favor of banning/not banning input methods. Things like helping level the playing field or the amount of time save are not relevant in the face of what should be allowed.

The only argument that matters, imo, is are we as a community okay with allowing programs other than the default keybind file to be used. I think we should be because allowing it because its pretty common in other speedrunning communities meaning the precedent has been set. Nearly 100% of Final Fantasy 7 PC runners, for example, use some variation of XPadder or Joy2Key to map the arrow keys to the dpad to allow movement with dpad and change buttons around. This is an external program being used to alter your ability to interact with the game and is perfectly fine.

Given that we as a community have judged it to be acceptable to allow controller players to use 3rd party programs to rebind because we feel like the game was "supposed" to let us rebind controller keys, we have already established precedent. You can argue developer intent all day but the simple fact is that the game that shipped to us does NOT allow controller rebinding, but we do it anyway. Ergo, 3rd party software is acceptable.

Although scroll wheel does allow inputs that are enhanced in their effectiveness, there is a very important distinction between a scroll wheel and a turbo button. If I hold down a turbo button, it is one action that will always produce a given set of outputs. Scroll wheel might augment your inputs but there is a distinct set of inputs you are making and there is absolutely skill involved in getting the maximum efficacy out of it. There is a big difference in your shooting if you just scroll the wheel with no practice and the optimal "scroll up once scroll down once" TAS level shooting. The fact that it still demands skill and is reflective of your inputs is an important distinction from a turbo button that needs to be taken into account.

Given all these points I think the safe course of action is to not change anything from where we are at now. There are absolutely valid arguments to be made against scroll wheel, otherwise we wouldn't be having such a divided debate. But we know for sure that the game is healthy and active the way that it is now. In the absence of overwhelming evidence in favor of changing things, I think we would be misguided in making a drastic change to how people are allowed to play the game.

Considering that each tick of the scroll wheel is only a single input, the timing of those inputs would depend on the player's ability to time those ticks. As far as I'm aware, what's not okay is having software/hardware that times inputs for you, which to my understanding scroll wheel does not. (I currently don't use scroll wheel binds personally, so this opinion is based off of what I've gathered from watching/listening to others who do). I messed with binding scroll wheel at one point and did not find it as free as I've heard people say; while it did make things easier I was still frequently messing things up. I couldn't even figure out how the spirit flame scroll wheeling worked. This would lead me to believe that, while it does make things easier, it does still require proper timing from the player in order to actually be a real advantage, and as long as it is on the player it should be okay. Just giving a player a scroll wheel bind does not immediately make them better at the game.

I wanted to point out that the "slippery slope" a few people have mentioned is a logical fallacy. When's the last time you heard about someone physically attaching a wheel to their keyboard to simulate scroll wheel? Those kinds of what-if scenarios aren't going to happen. We all know each other in this community. Who's going to pull something like that? And if they do, we'll discuss it then.

Next, the 1-to-1 argument. Yes, scroll wheel is technically still 1-to-1, making it not true turbo, but as we've mentioned many times now, it effectively lets you perform in ways that are virtually impossible for humans. Yes, you could theoretically bind a row of keys to left click and roll your fingers, but that's way harder than using scroll wheel. Plus, you only have so many fingers. I feel this point of "turbo" vs. "technically not turbo" isn't useful, because it's effectively pretty close to turbo.

One more thing which I said in Discord, but there were thousands of messages yesterday, so I'll repeat. On the topic of "if we ban scroll wheel with the justification that it's not allowed by the game, we should also ban all controller remapping", you must realize that those are not the same. On the one hand, we're talking about disallowing scroll wheel for TAS-level inputs (something that is disallowed by some FPSs, btw), and on the other hand, effectively removing all controller players from serious competitive Ori speedrunning. So yes, the fundamental logic (the game doesn't allow it) is the same, but it's really not fair to lump those together.

I'm not surprised that KBM runners want to keep scroll wheel, but I'm frustrated at what I feel are shaky justifications, when the reality (to me) seems to be that KBM runners enjoy the advantages of scroll wheel and don't want to lose the extra time or have to re-learn. Both of those things are understandable.

"No one will actually do it, we will discuss it if it happens" is what got us into the whole mess with TA back when Sigma took WR with blind misty. You might not think something is reasonable to do, but if someone can do something there are people who will do it. I don't think kicking the can down the road like that is a good idea here.

I disagree that the "technically not turbo" discussion isn't important. I think sigma made his point on that one better than I can so I would just say his concerns on the matter mirror my own.

I don't think anyone is seriously advocating removing controller remapping and forcing controller runners out, the point being made there is that we are already okay with superceding what the developers shipped to us to make that happen, so you can't really make the argument of "the game doesn't allow you to use mouse wheel so it needs to be removed." We already allow things the game doesn't allow so mouse wheel needs to be considered as well.

The actual time save provided by mouse wheel is fairly small, we are all friends here and I don't think those of us advocating keeping the wheel are doing so to try and screw controller players out of a few seconds. The arguments made have been coming from the basis of wanting a ruleset with internally consistent logic that isn't likely to cause future problems, not on the basis of timesave.

I am mostly swayed by Sigma's and Hetfield's arguments, but I do want to raise a point about the nature of the thing we're discussing that I think is somewhat missed. The following is just copy-paste from some stuff I posted in the discord earlier:

[quote]Input devices are weird and the entire genesis of this discussion I think occurs because scrolls wheels are actually special and different Keys and buttons have distinct states of up, down, and held that games look for to determine whether to do a thing So our model for understanding these is basically, as long as the human is holding down the key/button, actions can be occurring - and we draw the line at, things shouldn't happen after the key/button is released Analog sticks are special and different because they don't actually provide an input event to the game the same way - instead, the game polls the analog stick position and decides a thing to do based on it (almost always movement, but in the case of bash for example it's aim) Mouse wheels are special and different because there's no button up event - just a series of repeated button presses And games handle this sort of thing very differently In Ori's case, it just straight up doesn't handle it, it doesn't even poll or look at the mouse wheel as far as we know So given all this, the reason I look at the scroll wheel with a questioning attitude is that we have to use software to transform those mouse wheel events into a completely different kind of event to get the game to register it successfully And of course, we have seen that since the transformation isn't perfect, if you do as Eli just mentioned - unlock the wheel on a G502 and scroll forever - you'll just start charging up charge flame instead of actually shooting So there is sort of a frontier being opened there when you say that that particular kind of remapping is allowed - it's a little special and different compared to other kinds of remapping[/quote]

(To add to these musings - another game I run, Bastion, has direct support for binding the mouse wheel to any of its functions. At runtime, each frame it checks to see if the mouse wheel moved during the last frame. If so, it considers that to be a "button pressed" event. This allows you to attain every-frame button presses as a first class function of the game. Ori doesn't have any similar support, so we have to use external software to turn the mouse wheel scrolling into something that "looks like" you're pressing a key.)

(edit - Actually I realize part of what I said in there is misleading/wrong. Actually the scroll wheel doesn't really provide inputs, it's just another axis of movement. Software can poll to detect a change on that axis and use that to trigger some event. Most scroll wheels "click" so it looks like discrete inputs, but it technically is just another axis, more like the analog stick than anything.)

That said, I'm backing off advocating for banning, as it seems like the arguments for banning don't support the likely cost to the community. On the one hand, we can take guidance from other competitive communities, some of which do ban things like this (with valid justifications). On the other hand, we're not talking about an unfair competitive advantage - that is, anybody has access to use a scroll wheel, they're not specialized or expensive hardware. We're talking about something that, to some of us, violates a spirit of speedrunning. But that said, speedrunning is primarily a hobby for fun and community, and maintaining the status quo here seems to be consistent with supporting those things.

I think I agree with Vulajin's point that the problems with scroll wheel aren't worth messing up the community this much, especially because a majority of runners use KBM anyway. Just so that it's said though (Vula alluded to this above), but Rainbow 6: Siege had similar problems, where players could bind left click to scroll wheel using external software to fire a pistol at unlimited speed (I guess it would be once per frame?), something the game did not allow by default. The backlash from competitive players was such that Ubisoft had to step in and ban the practice because it would have killed the competitive scene. So there is precedent for this kind of thing.

Speaking of logical fallacies, a lot of people are are invoking the "this isn't worth causing upheaval in the community over" argument, and I would just like to point out that such an appeal to the majority has no place in a discussion that can be solved completely with logic and common sense. If disallowing 1-to-1 rebind and using alternate input devices was a sensible thing to do, then it should be done regardless of how many people are opposed to it, but it isn't.

[quote=Grimelios]I wanted to point out that the "slippery slope" a few people have mentioned is a logical fallacy. When's the last time you heard about someone physically attaching a wheel to their keyboard to simulate scroll wheel? Those kinds of what-if scenarios aren't going to happen. We all know each other in this community. Who's going to pull something like that? And if they do, we'll discuss it then.[/quote] There is no slippery slope in our argument when we firmly draw the line at using 1-to-1 rebinds/different input devices. A slippery slope argument would be, "Well, while banning scroll wheel is ok in and of itself, this would open the door to having to ban other things that wouldn't be ok." We have already stated that rebinding to the scroll wheel is not "cheating" and given our reasons why; the onus is upon you to prove that it is if any changes are to be made. There is no need to discuss peripheral or subsequent consequences until you have done that.

[quote=Grimelios]Next, the 1-to-1 argument. Yes, scroll wheel is technically still 1-to-1, making it not true turbo, but as we've mentioned many times now, it effectively lets you perform in ways that are virtually impossible for humans. Yes, you could theoretically bind a row of keys to left click and roll your fingers, but that's way harder than using scroll wheel. Plus, you only have so many fingers. I feel this point of "turbo" vs. "technically not turbo" isn't useful, because it's effectively pretty close to turbo.[/quote] Difficulty is completely subjective. Saying "it's easier" is meaningless and irrelevant when this will differ from person to person. Drawing a line at 1-to-1 binds is objective, and is the only thing that matters here.

[quote=Grimelios]I'm not surprised that KBM runners want to keep scroll wheel, but I'm frustrated at what I feel are shaky justifications, when the reality (to me) seems to be that KBM runners enjoy the advantages of scroll wheel and don't want to lose the extra time or have to re-learn. Both of those things are understandable.[/quote] This kind of baseless speculation and strawmanning is completely unnecessary. We've already explained our argument by giving objective points, and for you to say "Hmm none of that matters because I think your real reason for arguing is because you don't want to get good," is inane and, quite frankly, insulting. Do you have any idea how easily I could turn the same argument around on you? "The only reason you want to ban scroll wheel is because controller doesn't have one and you don't want to take the time to re-learn the game on KBM even though you know it's the superior input device." Obviously, I don't believe that. People can and should play on whatever input device they want for whatever reason they want, but I'm simply not going to let you get away with dogmatically saying "Well I'm right and you're wrong, but the only reason we're capitulating is because of tyranny of the majority" like Vulajin did when players were binding multiple actions to one input in the keyconfig.txt.

Dude Het, that doesn't make sense. "There is no slippery slope." But Sigma was the one who mentioned it first. I didn't make that up. "Difficulty is completely subjective." I mean, I guess, but who would think that rolling a series of 4 keys in four frames is easier than a quick scroll wheel input? You're taking a general statement (difficulty is subjective) and applying it to a situation where one method is pretty clearly easier.

You talk about being insulting? "Hmm none of that matters because I think your real reason for arguing is because you don't want to get good." That is not what I fucking said, nor are your other quotes. You are the literal best Ori player on the planet, and my time is worse than most KBM runners. That shit is a straw man, not what I said.

One more thing. My "baseless speculation" isn't baseless at all. Based on the Discord discussion, controller players are pretty much all in favor of banning and KBM players are basically all in favor of keeping it (with rare exceptions). So it's not baseless at all.

I'm also curious your response to the point I made about R6: Siege. In that game, scroll wheel was banned even though it's technically the same 1-to-1 input. What makes Ori different?

Ori is not a multiplayer experience. The game will not be ruined for some players because some dude is using scroll wheel to shoot faster.

It's multiplayer in the sense that we compete with each other. You're right that if there was no speedrunning community, it wouldn't matter at all how you used the game, including directly modifying games files or using timed macros. But speedrunning adds a multiplayer component.

I overall agree with what sigma/hetfield discussed, as well as some points other people brought up. I haven't completed substantial number of Ori runs myself or been in the community nearly as long as other members, but more elaboration if you are interested:

For me it's pretty clear that each 'tick/click' of the scroll wheel is an instant press and release (I've seen that said a lot); which I like for it being allowed. I've seen people bring up that it makes it easier to consistently achieve an insane level efficiency of speed/pacing of inputs. This exact action though can be simulated precisely by binding 1->9 (or other line of adjoining keys on the keyboard) to the same action/bind and sliding your finger along those keys. In both cases I'm using 1 finger, it feels awkward but still is pretty easy to get the same effect, and has the same benefits and applications to an in-game effect compared to the scroll wheel. An interesting example is in JKA there is a runner who has a sequence of keyboard presses in a line for some early game menu management (like 8 button presses simulating a sequence composed of 3 different keys); so he can just slide his finger across the keys instead of pounding out the exact sequence as fast as possible. There could be a point of difference that scroll wheel is in a more convenient location/fashion, but I don't see this as relevant to the ruling of legality.

Next, I'm not confident what-so-ever, but I think scroll wheel can be transposed to holding a key while it's spinning? Please halp if I'm wrong and correct me. I think some people have done this for double bashing (insert uncertainty in tone of voice)? If that is something that exists, I am not a huge fan of using software to change the functionality of the normal properties of spinning the scroll wheel or for keyboard press in that regard. This however just means that I wont use it; I mean for Double Bashing I just do it manually with 2 different keys/buttons (E and RMB). Regardless of how I feel, an input is still an input, and it doesn't bother me if people use scroll wheel or apply software to alter keyboard presses for that method. I liked Roose's discussion on software being okay to alter binds for both controller and keyboard.

Overall, I am fine with people applying scroll wheel in both those ways to their runs. I understand the arguments people have brought up, which most do have some merit to them; but maybe not in regards to the legality. My general feel is that the points that I've seen against scroll wheel being allowed end up revolving around controllers being at a fundamental disadvantage because they don't have a comparable component to the hardware; which means the game becomes harder to perform consistently in some senses. I don't think easier/harder is valid/relevant enough to make a ruling in this regard; but scripted/applied artificial delay is clear-cut to me why it's banned (ie "turbo" button). I also agree in terms of what people have said in regards to the community; to me, right now, it's a harder decision/sell to ban the use of scroll wheel than to continue to allow it.