Worthwhile mentioning that the MGS1 board is now experimenting with an emulator category, DuckStation only that basically is a supercharged Fast Disc Speed. This FDS (in the case of MGS1) is minutes faster than PSTV/PSP. You can find info about the settings here: https://www.speedrun.com/mgs1/thread/2u4je/2#tt3qi While I cannot confirm the stability for other games like Parasite Eve, the community voted on creating a separated emulator category that allows for this.
I don't think anyone would dispute that standard disc speed is at a heavy disadvantage that makes some people say 'why bother.' Some view speedrunning more from a competitive/leaderboard standpoint rather than a personal growth matter. Additionally, perception is reality. Even though filtering by console will show what the actual fastest run is under those conditions, the vast majority of people do not care and just care about what is presented without any user input on the leaderboard. I've seen this time and time again on PS leaderboards.
While I feel the current leaderboard setup on this board and others is more honest to what is and isn't faster and keeps PS1 emulation to just that, emulating the PS1's performance and loads in the long term could make people shy away from running PS games.
You can check the menu and sort by emu only and compare that way.
I'm not de-legitimizing your games in other communities, just that there isn't a difference between consoles in this game outside of the 2 min of time save between consoles.
Since you brought up my other communities, they're all sorted into categories based on differences in the games and routes based on the consoles, not relegated to differences in time.
Emulators are welcome for accessibility in exchange for their lack of competitive advantage.
I'd be much more happy with utilizing a community wide standard emulator with adjustments made (Like duckstation previously mentioned) so that emu can run even to the hardware rather than separating an entire board for the sake of accessibility that others were not afforded.
I'm not a mod so it's up to them.
I like the idea of a separate emu category with a standard emuluator.Maybe keep the main leaderboard the 1st one, and the emu the second one so that people can compete.
Having a emulator standard seems the way to go, but I'm a little bit worried about how we enforce that. I'm not a mod, so you guys will have to figure that out. I'm willing to test if needed!
If we made an emulator available that was equivalent to the PSP/PSTV there'd be no reason to split the boards as there's no discrepancy in time or accessibility.
If people are still in favor of a split after that then it's because they want to compete in a less competitive environment.
As plywood said, the loads are faster with their current emu build/category. I don't think we'll ever have the testing available to make sure an emu is the EXACT same as PSP/PSTV. We'd have to test almost every load. I'm willing to do 10 door load tests as much as possible, but it would take a year to do every load and make sure all the settings are consistent.
I'm willing to put the work in, but a separate emu category seems like the easiest for acessability,
Also, just want to note, if emu is a separate category, you could run in both categories. It would still be the same competitive environment, because everyone who ran it on PSP/PSTV could also run it on emu as well.
I also want to note that I've had plenty of people in my stream say that they want to run the game but they can't spend the money. A PSP+Wires+A/V Capture card is a daunting, $200+ task for a setup for one speedgame. PSTV is more. The massive price of running this game is a serious gatekeep.
Totally agree. The issue isn't that I'm upset about more categories because my times are good on emu or console or whatever as well, my issue is that it seems less an accessibility gripe and more of a "I don't wanna have to compete against the top 10 runs on the board" if we have viable emulation options that are within a certain threshold.
I wish it were like the gameboy emulators, where a lot of them are incredibly accurate. We could just pick the most accurate emu's and run them - but ps1 emulation is not that precise, unfortunately. A lot of the ps1 emus are kind of close to PS1 or PS2 accurate, but finding PSN accuracy would be a total nightmare.
Case in point: gameboy emulators are incredibly accurate - so a leaderboard like GB Kirby's Dream Land is mostly emulator runs, even the top 10. We can't offer that accuracy yet for the PSN PSP/PSTV version yet, and I don't know if that's ever going to be possible. Honestly, I don't think the threshold is possible, but I'd like to hear more, especially from plywood's take from the MGS community.
Good discussion to have though, love to hear all the quriks about it.
If we figured out a way to make an emulator exactly like the PSN-PSP/PSTV version, I think we should continue with one leaderboard, I'll help put in the work with that, but I don't know if it will ever be perfect.
Oh duckstation i heared about this emu from RE1 already . i guess its that one what has daily updates. The Times improved alot in the last mounths on this emu. iam also looking forward to that MGS 1 experimenting to see what is possible with this emu. Of Course should be then emu as an own category when its faster than og hardware but the boards are atm so that it doesnt matter how fast the version is. So it could be also integrated like everything else here in the boards because nobody has a advantage of buying fastest hardware. I could live with that because the fastest version is for everybody avaible without spending that money! i know at least a couple of re runners they would like join this game but not with this boards. Some comming from very poor countrys and the cant/want spend that money . But i like very much that idea of a emu board where everybody has the same conditions maybe also with fixed settings and fixed emu that everybody can compete at least there with the same requirements. and its for everybody available. Maybe could be this board as a provisorium until there is stabil duckstation emu version which is around the same speed as psp/pstv .later then put them together, would be totally fine. and pls palmer stop with this bs that people only want to compete against less player. i want only fairness thats it!!
There are different definitions regarding fairness (refer to my posts on page 1). There is fairness in the sense of everyone is on a level playing field, and fairness that we are fair to what is and is not fast in terms of loads. It's only within recent times that fast, stable, and pretty effective emulation is more of a reality via DuckStation and BeetleHW via RetroArch.
In terms of PSTV/PSP style loads, you can achieve somewhat similar or slightly slower loads to that, but naturally it requires tuning. Equivalency may be achievable but would be tricky. If you were to have faster loads than hardware I think emulator should be separated, case closed.
I completely understand the logic that some may want segregation so they don't have to deal with the competition that exists under the current leaderboard paradigm. But there is the line of logic that if you build it, they will come.
For myself, I feel pretty mixed on how people obsess over leaderboard position rather than running the game to the run the game. The aesthetics of speedrunning are more important than I wish they were.
In the end, I do want more people running a game, not less. But I do have doubt about vague claims that 'I would run the game IF x, y, and z were changed about the board.' Their motivation is somewhat questionable.
That being said, a turbo button allowed, Fast Disc Speed style emu board would be intriguing. Further, an edited ISO file that allows skippable cutscenes would be even more intriguing. While such a thing would not be vanilla Parasite Eve, at least it would make EMU something different.
I dont see why not to add an emu category, it just seems like people that previously said people who didnt want to run on the optimal platform need to get over it regarding people on ps2 wanting their own category are now seemingly not wanting to run the game on the new optimal platform.
Kind of amusing, and honestly id rather it just be allowed in the main category, theres never been a problem with large discrepancies between platforms before.
Why would the attitude of "if you want to be competitive, just run it on the best platform" suddenly not apply when the previously high ranked runners could lose their spots because theres a new best platform to run it on?
If You Do Decide To Add Emulator To The Boards It Should Be 100% Seperate Without Argument
I Have A Suggestion To Make The Boards Fair.
Go And Have A Look At The Parasite Eve 2 Leaderboards
Look At The Consoles And How They're Separated
Its Really Fair On There
Everyone Has A Chance To Get A World Record Or A Good Time On Their Respected Console/Emu
This Saves Soy Boys Like Me Getting Salty
In The Parasite Eve 2 Community The Duckstation Emulator World Record Is Currently Slower Then The PS2 World Record
I've Personally Tested Duckstation (Not Yet On This Game) But On Tenchu, Parasite Eve 2 And I Think Apocalypse
And Found That The Emu Was Slower
Here's how I see it (personal opinion)-
Myself and other runners who CAN afford the hundreds of dollars to get a hardware setup actually get an easier competitive environment because not that many potential runners want to put out the dough to learn/run this game. Leaderboard culture is important to a lot of people, and that just is what it is - the arguments to the pros and cons of it are both sound, but it exists.
If we do an separate emu category, and we pick a consistent emu, that gives a competitive environment for EVERYONE since people who currently run on hardware could also run in the emu category as well. The top 10 environment wouldn't change because those who can afford it can run both, and those who can't, can run that same separate category equally.
I 100% believe that if we add that category, we'd get a ton of new runners within the next year.
I propose we test and find a build of duckstation that we like and just require that emulator in the rules of that category. Perhaps slower emu's as well. As always, I'm willing to help put in the work here, so let me know. I could try and find a setting that has similar 10-door load tests to the PSN version, but it would never be perfect. Hit me up if this is an option worth considering.
I'd also like to recommend that if we do a emu category that it is not the default category that shows up on the leaderboard.
Just want to point it out again because I saw it in an earlier post. Emu runs are not banned on the current boards. There are a few emu runs on the board currently. If someone was so inclined they could be doing emu runs with the current leaderboard structure that we have. If anyone was just picking up the run they wouldn't be competing for a top time right away anyway so the fact that people are clamoring for a board split before they even attempt a run because of potential competitive unfairness speaks more to me than anything else. I am very much for accessibility and open for discussion should a situation for a potential board split become necessary but as it stands, I don't see any reason the boards should be split.
If you run on an emulator, you get an automatic 5-10 minute penalty because of how slow it is compared to hardware. It's allowed, but you will never do anything but trash runs because of the handicap.
The case study of Gameboy boards is fascinating and relevant to this topic. Emulators there are the exact same speed as hardware, so they get a ton of people playing the popular games, and emu's are allowed in the main leaderboard. A lot of gameboy boards have emu runs in the top of the leaderboard.
We don't have that parody due to hardware, it's just not possible for us. The current leaderboard is non-competitive for anyone who doesn't have 200+ dollars to throwaway for one speedgame setup. That bums out a lot of potential runners, of which I've had a more than a few of them come into my stream during PE runs and complain about the cost-of-entry to be competitive.
I am willing to try to find emulator setups that are close to PSN times, but I don't know how close I can get to it. It will take work, but I'm willing to try. Hit me up if this an acceptable option!
