About Overswarm's NG3 JP Low% in 15:39
5 years ago
China

Why were many responses deleted? Where have they gone? I agree with 0 ninpo and maybe I will try to run a NG3 Low% "0 ninpo" run.

twin0mega likes this
North Brabant, Netherlands

@kokoro Speedrun.com got hacked. So they used an image to restore a big part of the website, because a lot of runs and games got deleted.

twin0mega likes this
Kentucky, USA

Reposting due to deletion via backup:

I think the best solution is to create categories and rules that fit with existing runs.There has never been a pacifist or Low% run in Ninja Gaiden 3 with the proposed "old" rules -- there's no reason to cater to dead rulesets. If someone wants to run those specific rules later, they can do so and then we'll have runs to use and those categories could be discussed at that time. Discussing them prior to a run existing doesn't make much sense.

Currently we have runs for:

No pickups - Uranium Anchor Any % (no ninpo) - Overswarm Low % (expending ninpo is allowed, collecting non-useful pickups allowed) - Nanjimao Pacifist (don't kill non-boss enemies) - Overswarm, though I wasn't done and didn't submit it Pacifist + Low % (expending ninpo is allowed, collecting non-useful pickups allowed) - Gusmancini

There's no reason to fit the NG1 / NG2 rules. I mean, NG2 doesn't even follow their own rules -- everyone expends ninpo there too. The rules were made by players who aren't going to be participating in NG3 at all and the players we have aren't against the minor modifications at least -- no reason for a rules purity test that invalidates several runs already on the boards.

My suggestion would be creating the 5 categories listed above (6 counting Low % J) as miscellaneous categories. Put the appropriate runs in the appropriate categories. Rather than voting on rules, use the rules that people are already submitting times for. People not running a category shouldn't be determining rules for people that do run it.

None of the suggested categories are particularly popular -- the only ones with recent runs are mine and they still have a grand total of 1 run. I'm not against a general policy of requiring X runs for a category to be created so there aren't several one-run categories. That said I think each of the categories is useful in its own right:

No pickups - Arbitrarily difficult due to "oops, reset!". Has routing strategies based off of the 10 ninpo + windmill shuriken. I personally wouldn't run this and Uranium Anchor seemed to think no one else really would either!

Any% (no ninpo) - A "sword only" category, allows for the sword upgrade, health, 1ups, etc. I personally enjoyed this as a category when it was the Low % (J) rules, moreso than Any %. The equivalent in NG2 would allow for shadow clones, but no ninpo.

Low % - Like the above category, but with no health / 1ups / sword upgrade. Tbh, I find this category boring, but Low % is a pretty general staple across games. This is the only category that requires killing bosses with the "normal" sword.

Pacifist (don't kill non-boss enemies) - the "true pacifist" run, is not represented in the NG series. When I ran this it required routing to get the right pickups to get the right boss kills - they were basically any% boss kills.

Pacifist + Low % - Like the above, except you don't route pickups. Boss kills are Low% boss kills. This is gus' run and is arguably the most difficult.

The categories are all pretty granular and equally unpopular, so there's no clear way to choose one to be allowed over another. I think the first question to ask is "what constitutes creating a category" -- if one-run categories that are unique apply, all of the above work. If there's some sort of limitation that should be decided early on and then have categories follow those rules.

Illinois, USA

The main reason we're still discussing all of this is to figure out how flexible the Low% rules can be for NG3 specifically, since its much easier to accidentally pick up or use Ninpo.

Do we stick with very strict where resets will happen far more often, which to me seems a lot less enjoyable? Or do we cater to add a little flexibility and allow expelling of ninpo down to 0 to avoid using it on accident on bosses when slash canceling?

United States

It's actually pretty easy not to pick up items in ng3. It is only difficult to slash cancel and not use ninpo by accident.

twin0mega likes this
Illinois, USA

From what I've experienced and seen with many runners, NG3 JP tends to be worse than the US version for that. Many of the enemies line up perfectly with items. So as you slash to kill the enemies, you get the item drops on accident. Im sure things could be routed to avoid that. But currently, the better routing lines up perfectly in a few spots.

Edited by the author 5 years ago
United States

Maybe I found a different route then, because I'm only running JP with no pickups atm and there are only 2 items that I think I hit by accident. Are you looking at the JP any% to make that determination? I think a lot of those problems can be avoided by simply jumping over the risky enemies or pausing a few frames to get them out of the way of the item.

twin0mega likes this
Illinois, USA

Yeah, pausing a few frames can definitely get past them. The runs I've seen are both any% and Low%. But it's not an easy game. And the main point I'm hoping people will see is, it's super easy to make mistakes in that one. So resetting happens a lot as is. I'd hate for resets to happen any more than needed.

color_theory likes this
Kentucky, USA

I think the big holdup here is there is nothing that says a category is good or bad other than the number of runs and nothing that says whether a category should exist in the first place other than "it is a category that is run". If everyone posting in this thread decided to run "Ninja Gaiden 3: Sword + Windmill shuriken only" you'd get a totally new category with more runs than any others. It's how the Pacifist runs in NG1 started. The issue now is that categories are starting before there are runners.

I think there's going to be room for Low% and Pacifist runs no matter what because they're generally staples, but I think we'd need to cater to the runs that exist first and foremost. That would mean, at minimum, a Low% (expending ninpo allowed, pickups allowed) and a Pacifist+Low% category.

I don't see an issue with multiple "misc" categories, misc is for the more niche ones. If there is an issue with multiple categories, a mod needs to dictate the requirement for creating and/or keeping a category. Any% (J) was created because someone just said "hey I think I'm going to run this" and it was empty for over half a year, so I don't think anything has been really set in stone as far as "requirements".

I could go on what I'd do to determine creating categories and what is "legitimate", but I'm not a mod. We just need a statement from a mod on "what constitutes a new category".

Kentucky, USA

@Backslash if you're making the call, we need to know what constitutes whether a category should be created

Västra Götaland, Sweden

I don't think the answer is creating 5 different categories for what basically is the same category, with one small difference. Though if people here really want it and at least one person shows intent on running a category, under specific rules that aren't defined here, then I don't see why not.

No pickups seems like a good choice that kind of makes sense and I don't feel that UA's run really belongs in any% (Though UA did pick up a subweapon in 7-1 so it depends on how strict you'd want to be with the category rules). Also color_theory seems interested in running it if I'm not mistaken.

Regarding the rules for low% I agree with Messi's suggestion (version 2) with the addition that you should be able to expel ninpo if it doesn't kill an enemy or affect anything else. Same with pacifist.

I'll update the rules this weekend when I'm off work and if you see anything missing just make another post here or whatever.

Edited by the author 5 years ago
twin0mega likes this
China

Thanks Backslash and someone else. I have a question about :Non-useful items are allowed to be picked up. What are Non-useful items? Which items? So I uploaded 2 videos just now. I know "忍" is allowed to pick up like this ACT 2-1. But I'm not sure this 7-1 is allowed or not because I picked up a ninpo (I call it Shield Fire).

Edited by the author 5 years ago
twin0mega likes this
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