Technodrome Metronome
5 years ago
Pennsylvania, USA

After testing this morning, I was able to get Technodrome spawn 3/3 times using a metronome program. I set the metronome for 8.05 and start it at power on. I'm sure there are better programs to use, but I will link the one I use.

Enjoy the feeling of confident Technodrome spawns, this game just got way less soul crushing!

https://bitbucket.org/ToastPlusOne/eontimer/downloads/

Shoutouts to the following streamers for their help with this:

https://www.twitch.tv/reanymation https://www.twitch.tv/verkk

thenesmaster likes this
Pennsylvania, USA

For the metronome timer, I use tab 3.

Mode: Standard Pre-Timer: 8050

All other settings I didn't touch, but they read:

Lag: 958483 Target Frame: 1000

thenesmaster likes this
United States

As much as I would love consistent technodrome, I feel like this qualifies as tool assisted.

Pennsylvania, USA

I can see that argument, but then would you also classify setting your livesplit timer at a negative number at power-on and then pressing start at a specific time on the timer as tool assisted?

United States

I would, yes, which is why I have never done that. There are definitely other games that use timers for making decisions in game though. In SMB you are able to determine what the hammer bros patterns will be based on frame rule, and while I think that also qualifies as tool assisted, they seem to be okay with it.

Part of me wants to just allow it so that more people might actually run this game, but I keep hoping we will find a methodology that is more "legitimate" for lack of a better word.

Either way, before people jump on this and run with it, I think we need to have a discussion about whether it is or is not tool assisted.

Pennsylvania, USA

I agree about having a discussion.

While some may define it technically as a tool, there are other games which allow similar RNG manipulation tactics and their communities are cool with it.

I believe allowing a metronome will open the game up to more runners that steer away from this game mainly due to the Technodrome spawn. I've talked with at least a handfull of well-known runners that they gave that specific reason.

From a personal perspective having experience with it, I can say that if I use a metronome and get a desirable time, I'm not going to feel like I'm cheating. I'm probably going to feel like the game finally won't be cheating me haha.

This isn't RNG that you are able to react to, this is RNG that kills the run before it even begins and can be manipulated before the official timer starts.

In the sprit of the game and the potential to open it up to new runners, my vote goes to allowing it. It would allow the runners to be able to play the game through, every time.

I am open to whatever the community decides on this.

Pennsylvania, USA

A new category for it is also an option if it ends up being a split decision.

North Carolina, USA

I've gone back and forth in my head on this subject in the past 24 hrs. I don't consider myself a "speedrunner" since this is the only game I play in that manner, so I don't know what is considered OK and what is not with other games. I can't really decide to be honest. I think Kavoc summed up the thoughts I have pretty well. I do think it is considered a tool, but I also think the Technodrome spawn is an issue with the speedrun that can dissuade some runners, so a part of me wants to allow it. When Skunky said that he wouldn't feel like he "cheated" by using a metronome, I admit that I would feel like I would be cheating if I use it. It's a balancing act: How "pure" do want the run to be vs. growing the community by making it more accessible. I don't know the answer. I wish I did. Being my usual wishy-washy self, I'll go along with whatever the community decides.

Just thinking to myself: Would looking at a clock on the wall or a watch be considered a tool because that could possibly be used also. Technically yes, but should we and how can we prevent runners from using them?

Skunky48 likes this
North Carolina, USA

Is that you Skunky? LUL

https://i.imgur.com/Ry2QRVI.jpg

reanymation and Skunky48 like this
Mexico

HI:

I didn't know this will cause some controversy.

Well I always trust in the world record holder and also my friend Skunky.

But if you ask me in the personal. I think this could take out some fun of guessing the caves or do your own start button.

Also I think this could be a disadvantege over the persons that doesn't use the Metrodome, as they will require more runs and more attempts to stand a chance.

You are the experts and the moderators, so of course you are the ones that decide. I just like the game, but I don't know of advanced rules and stuff.

I would say let's make a new category for this, but the real reason that I would say that is because I would like to see a 3rd official category of the Turtles, the one that you like, no problem, but it would be nice to have finally our 3rd official category. Also I would say it could be more fair in it's own category because that means all people will use it in that category, so no problem.

But I repeat, I support the world record holder and my friend Skunky dessisions, because he is the more experimented of us in this game and the person that loves more this game than anybody in the world (well maybe that title belongs to me).

So my final vote goes to allow it in any% category, no problem, send my vote to that please. This is just my vote, doesn't count that I have the reason, because this controversy is beyond my hands and understanding, so I leave it to you, the experimented and more matures ones.

Mexico

While Im not yet an official speedrunner of this game, I'm in many other games and been around learning and watching a lot from othe communities as well as Im one of the mods for Cuphead right now.

So, with that being said, here are my 2 cents about the meteonome.

I believe it shouls be allowed, even if it wasn't, there would be no real way to really know wether someone is using it or not.

There are other runs thst already allow similar use of tools to minimize bad RNG (In my opinion, how technodrome works is bad RNG (my definition of bad RNG is that one which ita not fun)) its no like trying to dodge a random attack from a boss or something similar which really add to the gameplay, this one almost feel straight out to troll you (even just playing the game casually).

As an example, Banjo Kazooie uses a Question Calculator for a section called "Furnace Fun" it is a part of the game that is a big trivia/board game, but some questions in the trivia are completely RNG based on hints thst you get in game with a total of 256 possible patterns at the start of your run... This calculator helps you keep track of the hints (you still have to get them each run) and narrow down the possible patterns to as close as 1 so that its not always an RNG hellfest everytime after 2 hours into the run.

This also rewards skills, it would be horrible to keep losing runs, maybe at incredible paces to something that runners have almost 0 control at.

Metronome is just an audio queue, which some people already use the title screen music as such as well as some people already use the credits screen to title screen as a visual queue, the start still needs to happen at an specific frame even if you have a metronome.

Also, it would rewards mostly original hardware players which is just more pluses to it imo. Since emulator users and mini console users would need to find out the exact time for the metronome that works for them indovidually, since most likely due to input delay, it would be different from the time Skunky mentioned.

And lastly, if there are some runners interested, but that is the only thing stopping them from actually running the game theb even better to allow it and make the community bigger.

So that are my 2 cents in this regards.

Cheers

EDIT: Sorry for the typos, I wrote this from my cellphone

Edited by the author 5 years ago
United States

I suppose if controlling our own inputs is the only issue, then a metronome was never necessary. Just read the memory address and reset until you get a 2.

I'm not suggesting that reading memory is on the same level as a metronome, but I do believe that tool assisted goes beyond inputs and that you shouldn't be allowed "any means to feed yourself with information during a run."

There are even multiple programs I could come up with that I believe would be as accurate of a check as a direct memory read, but would not actually read the memory. It is hard for me to separate a program that tells me when to push a button from a program that tells me if I pushed a button correctly. Perhaps people feel both should be allowed anyhow.

I do seem to be in the strong minority here, though and I certainly won't kick and scream against what the community wants. I just wanted to clarify a bit more.

Skunky48 likes this
United States

You can definitely read the memory of a real console. You can definitely read inputs of a real controller while counting how long the controller has had power. You can definitely read on what frame since power on the console displayed the first level. The first is guaranteed to work and the other 2 are quick ideas that I think would also achieve the same info.

Anyhow thinking about it more, I think the line for me is that if you can't preform a trick consistently without a tool, then it is tool assisted. Things such as notes can/will be memorized and really only serve as a reminder of what trick to do, they don't aid in performing the actual trick. If I get a chance in the next couple days, I will look into what timing Skunky is even targeting and see if it could be targeted without a metronome. That is really just for my self though, as maybe it will make me feel better about it.

Skunky48 likes this
ĂŽle-de-France, France

The only thing I have to say is, a lot of runners don’t play the game just because position of technodrome is run killer before the start of the run. It is a good speedrun, but it kill 75% of runs of everybody. Hope community found a solution for everyone.

Skunky48 likes this
United States

I don't know Skunky, metronome please be home, it just doesn't have the same ring to it. I don't really know how a metronome works, I am assuming it just makes a noise and doesn't actually press the button for you? So, you would still have to press the start button and it just gives you a better audio cue? That doesn't seem bad, but it is probably a gray area (especially using a software program), so I definitely understand the discussion. I know there are numerous games where pressing start at a certain time is critical for fixing RNG, so is this something where people use this now and in the future other things are allowed? For Mickey Mousecapade, if you press start on a certain frame then you get a weapon spawn in the first level, would a metronome make that free, do you still have to press start in a 1-2 frame window? I am not sure, but I feel like if it is something where if you can get the technodrome 100% of the time using a metronome, but there is no consistent way without it, then maybe it is questionable. I would consider your run legit if you used it, but I think it is something that should be noted with the run if used.

Mexico

So what is the conclusion?

No problem, allowed in both official categorys?

For me is not a problem that, that LF says, for me is like a security or something to prevent everyone to go the distance in the game easily. This make the game harder and more interesing. I like that the game has that 3 caves.

Can somebody could explain the conclusion of this topic please?

United States

The conclusion is 16

United States

Based on feedback, metronomes are allowed. I don't have any more say than anyone else, but I feel like people are waiting on me to "decide" and I don't want to hold back runs from anyone. If there is a large movement against it in the future (I doubt there will be) we can consider moving those runs to another category or whatever. Thank you to everyone that did voice their opinion.

Skunky48, reanymation, and Burb like this
Pennsylvania, USA

Update: Metronome is definitely hit or miss. A lot of room for human error. The odds that you start the timer exactly at power on and that you press start on the correct frame are not great. I still vote in favor of it being usable, but I probably won't be using it very much.

There were a lot of valid points given by everyone and I am thankful for the input on this subject.

Maybe Kavoc's "Race" version will become the main category some day and we'll all be happy. :-)

Canada

Based on how frame specific the input is, and I know this is late to the conversation anyway, but just seeing it from actual data, metronome in my opinion doesn't improve the chances much. There's still a very specific amount of frames and timing the input from reset/power on to end on 1 frame, which is 1/60th of a second, which in most cases you're trying to hit sandwiched between wrong spawns isn't super reliable. It's great in theory, but the RNG fluctuates too fast to make this humanly practical.

Skunky48 likes this