I'm confused by the leaderboards...what gives?
6 years ago
United States

@Eunos explained my point.

@PharaohLawnFeevr: kirkq does.

But yeah, the issue here is that Level 0 start is naively being generalized, but to get good times in it requires you to use a completely different style of play. That's the essence of what makes a good category separation.

justinman114 likes this
Canada

Thanks for the feedback everyone. Over the past few months, moderators of NES games have put in extra effort to make the NES boards cleaner and more efficiently moderated. This has included removal of some extra categories with characteristics that make them unnecessary, such as completion of an abbreviated section of a game, excessive amounts of point intervals, or similar ideas that make it seem likely that the creator (or the person who made the request) was only looking for "free trophies."

Clearly, "100 Lines, Level 0 Start" is not one of these categories. As has already been stated, the 2 techniques that can be applied to speedrunning Tetris are most strongly exemplified at the extreme ends of the spectrum: starting at a higher level allows you to move the pieces to the side of the board while they are dropping quickly (you cannot pull pieces down while moving side to side), while starting at a lower level requires (for more optimal times) the player to take the initiative and build up higher to reduce the amount of time it takes to pull pieces down. These polar opposite strategies have been fully embraced by the community and for over a year have given us the benefit of 2 very different, very popular categories of speedrunning.

The attempt to merge the 2 categories together with the option to sort them by filter is not without merit, but there are a number of problems with it. I feel it's important that I state the main issues I've discovered here. For starters, anyone who has run both categories gets a big fat (Obsolete) above their video, which is just wrong. Also, for nearly every board, filters exist to examine differences in hardware, player location, etc. and rarely ever multiple bundled-together categories. The main problem I see with the filters is that runners are very unlikely to notice the Level 0 category if it's bundled in a filter, which means the gradual influx of new players is likely to stop entirely. Finally, the trophies earned in this category, while superficially displayed under the filters, no longer exist. I feel it's especially important to note that rcdrone put in a lot of effort to this category, and after he took 1st place, he continued to improve his time further. It's a really solid record that deserves the recognition that previously existed. "100 Lines, Level 0 Start" is a good, popular category with clear strategic implications and a thriving community of players, and should be treated as such on the boards. It is clear from the ensuing discussion that the vast majority of the community agrees, and your feedback counts for a lot.

With all this in mind, I am reinstating the category. The "100 Lines" category will not be altered at this time; players are free to continue submitting runs starting at any of the other levels. (Level 0 runs will either be kept in their own category or duplicated into the Level 0 filter.)

I want to make it clear that there should be no negative takeaway on either side. A decision was made with the intent of making things better. We all gained a lot of feedback about how such matters should be handled in the future. I personally have a lot of respect for RottDawg, and I want to note here that he verifies more runs than anyone else for this high-volume game, on a daily basis. (I login to verify runs nearly every day, but usually at night, hours after most daytime Tetris runs have already been verified.) I certainly hope he doesn't feel like I'm acting against him; all I'm doing is acting for the community, in response to lengthy and near-unanimous feedback.

2 asides for the moderating team to consider: firstly, the filter menu has a few categories that are identical. I believe levels 10-12, 13-15, and 16-18 operate at the same speeds (someone can verify this here) so perhaps those groups of 3 can be merged. Secondly, if there still exists a desire to remove a category, the "300K Points" category is worth consideration. It could also hypothetically be replaced by a 999,999 point "Maxout" category (perhaps for Jonas to rule forever). Or it could be left as is; it's still a popular category, and I think many people would agree that there should be at least one "Points" category.

This post is long enough already, so I'll leave it at that for now. Please let us know if anything is missing or inaccurate, but I believe every run was transferred correctly.

AriesFireTiger, justinman114 and 4 others like this
United States

Thank you for the thorough response; glad to see the category make it's comeback.

The 300K discussion could probably happen on another thread but I think it's a reasonable category as is; actually quite challenging but not enough to deter runners from attempting it.

The speeds are the same for 10-12, 13-15, and 16-18 - you are correct there.

And yes, shoutouts to all the mods doing a great job verifying runs quickly; especially recognizing the need for more mods with the influx of runs do to the tournament.

Pennsylvania, USA

What exactly are the speeds for each level, even beyond level 19?

California, USA

Copied from tetris.wiki, and the leaderboards kind of assume NTSC. Even where the start level speeds are the same, the level-increase logic is different, but it only matters above 100 lines.

NTSC (Level/Frames [60.098814 FPS]): 00 48 01 43 02 38 03 33 04 28 05 23 06 18 07 13 08 8 09 6 10–12 5 13–15 4 16–18 3 19–28 2 29+ 1

PAL (Level/Frames [50.006978 FPS]): 00 36 01 32 02 29 03 25 04 22 05 18 06 15 07 11 08 7 09 5 10–12 4 13–15 3 16–18 2 19+ 1

Edited by the author 6 years ago
Massachusetts, USA

Thank you NESC for reinstating and thank you to everyone for your feedback on the matter. I'm glad we could come to a compromise. :)

As for 300K, it's very arbitrary, but I wouldn't like to see it removed, as people have also worked hard on that category. I wouldn't be opposed to a maxout category though. I'm sure that would be reserved for the gods :D