So IGT on PC works.
2 years ago
Italy

Hello, everybody. Scary topic ahead, so usual disclaimer: we all know PC version is not the coolest, there is no point in killing the conversation with the usual comments like "PC should be banned, burned or time-travel prevented". Let's keep it straight on topic. So, this was quite a busy morning, culminating with the news that IGT on PC has actually been working fine for all this time. I'll recap all I've been told by the mods, which is based on information gathered by @GeminiREbirth while working on the patch.

  • IGT on PC is actually bound to the framerate. The intended framerate on PC is: 30 in normal game, 60 in menus, 20 underwater, and it pauses during FMVs and Pause menu.
  • This means the game knows that where the framerate is supposed to be 30, it has to count the time at a certain speed, and where the framerate is supposed to be 60 it counts at another speed and so on.
  • This means that framerate changes (as the overclocking thing we do by abusing the PC uptime) will not affect the IGT, but just make it run at a different speed. This results in a gap between RTA and IGT depending on how far we get from the intended speed.
  • This also means that people like @Dimension_Bomber, who had theorised the accuracy of IGT ages ago, are right.
  • This means, here we go, get ready, that an RTA leaderboard for the PC version could be considered unfair, because it rewards anyone who can make the game run faster.

As you might guess, the situation is quite tricky. Here are the alternatives I can see, with pros and cons:

  1. We don't care and keep the PC leaderboard ruled by RTA. Pros: no change in the placing for anybody, everybody keeps their place. Cons: as correctly suggested by @RapixOnGaming, we open the leaderboard to be absolutely smashed as soon as someone finds a way to make the game run one frame faster than the current known maximum. To put things in perspective, this is what happened with the current wave of runners, who know how to overclock the game and rapidly beated any old school runner. Back in the days, they simply didn't know and couldn't get the top speed. For the future, we could all be beated by a guy who can make the game run at 90FPS.

  2. Close the current PC leaderboard. Pros: we don't have to worry about the bad ugly unpatched PC version any more. Cons: we just freeze the problem. The problem is still there, the RTA will still be unfair. Moreover, nobody will have a chance to improve their times anymore. I used to be for closing the current leaderboard after the patch's release, but @Kaladere and @Vendettavic brought this argument and convinced me that it would not be so fair (unless we lock the category with me on the podium. That's cool, that's fair, nothing against it).

  3. We rule the PC leaderboard by IGT, removing RTA forever from the last category of DC2 still using it. Pros: I get my one IGT second world record back :D ; the leaderboard can stay open because IGT will never be broken by overclocking the framerate; end of the PC session abuse: anyone can start running the unpatched game as soon as they boot up their computer. The game will run slightly slower, but IGT will be good. Cons: @xtra2Ez loses his three RTA seconds world record (GG), which might be a tiny tiny bit frustrating, even if IGT is more fair to everybody. Additionally, we'll have to say goodbye to our RTA splits and start all over with a fully IGT autosplitter, like with Gemini's patch.

I'm no one, but I would like the destiny of PC leaderboard to be left to a vote, more than to the choice of a single mod or person. These are the facts, according to what was discovered by Gemini, and I think we can come up with a decision nicely, quickly and like adults. Again, please, don't waste everybody's time with sterile comments on how stupidly broken PC version is: they don't help.

I would personally go with the option 3 and convert the leaderboard to IGT. I'm sure xtra will save two seconds tomorrow, so my record is just temporary, and it doesn't really matter, right? Everybody will be able to grind the hell out of it without limitations, except for the happy crashes.

Have a nice conversation :)

Edited by the author 2 years ago
xtra2Ez and Kaladere like this
Valhalla

Thanks @Nazzareno for writing this clear post.

As for the vote I'm totally for number 3 and call the category "PC Legacy" or "PC Vanilla" or "PC Un-patched" and keep it open also in the future after the patch comes out for future submissions.

However, if we instead keep the leaderboard timed by RTA, I'm personally totally against keep it open for future submissions. "We" as moderator have no way to keep control and assure the community a fair competition. The game is potentially open to all sort of hacking to get the edge with higher and higher unnatural FPS. In a way this is already what is happening right now. The game has always been intended to be run at 60/30/20. If so, I'm to call the category "PC Deprecated" or something similar and close it for submissions after a pre-decided end date.

It is really unfortunate that this information and confirm from Gemini has arrived exactly when Xtra got WR with lower IGT and better RTA. There would not be a revolution otherwise in the top positions. The only exception is Garl_Memory who will pass 4 people, but not because of the FPS, rather because he submitted an incorrect RTA, taking it at the end of the cutscene and not at the last door.

I have always agreed with @Dimension_Bomber about IGT, and thought it was always correct all along, but had no way to prove it, I believe now it's the good time to revert everything to IGT.

This is my two cents.

Edited by the author 2 years ago
xtra2Ez and Kaladere like this

I am for the case #3. Well, it will be much more fair. Also it will be very useful to turn on the IGT in the separate window. I don't think it would be comfortable to play with IGT written right on the game window... Maybe it deserves even a new rule: show IGT... But this condition maybe not so necessary... Just for information to the speedrunners.

Spain

Since not all desitions are taken by democracy (some things were decided by a few, with the rest knowing NOTHING) i won´t cast a vote. I just would say that is more fair to DELETE the entire actual PC ladder than to lock it so the people "who knows how to cheat better than ppl from the past" cannot have eternal "good" times, even if it doesn´t care anymore to anyone (it cares to me, it destroys my work from the last year to lock it/ delete it) decide what u want, even if u lock the category i will run it as it is.

United Kingdom

Although I've not submitted anything for a year, I plan on running again when ReBirth releases, so my two cents are: option 3 - especially when ReBirth hits, it's just going to make it a fairer playing field all around.

RapixOnGaming and Kaladere like this
Italy
  • RTA vs IGT on current PC is freaking relevant, I might say.
  • No one ever mentioned mixing Patched and Unpatched.
  • Doorskip is for another happy thread.
Kaladere likes this
Spain

@if_and_while Door skip is a major thing to me if the filosofy of the patch is to fix the game and not to make the game easier/faster.

Spain

Well i changed my mind. My vote is a new option. If this is like it is then -> Option 4. Delete current PC ladder. That is my vote. Then can we restart with everything being fair? (I already took screenshots of the actual ladder so i can run "old terms")

Edited by the author 2 years ago
Saskatchewan, Canada

Someone should make a separate thread and a google docs for everyone to put their vote on instead of this for clarity

If IGT is/has been working fine, I would say the correct thing would be going to IGT for ruling the board. The fact we can just run the game whenever we want sounds like a fresh of breath air and not feel like we are a ticking time bomb with playing the game. I do feel for Xtra however, with losing the WR by 1 second </3

Another benefit of changing to IGT is experiences like this. My first sub 50 PB I suffered from slow underwater and had an IGT of like 52:06 (Not 100% sure but was faster than Dimensions IGT.) It really sucked and was pretty demoralizing losing that time for something that wasn't skill related, and moving to IGT would eliminate any else from having to experience that feeling again.

It also opens us up to keep the current board open., and move it to "PC Legacy." If someone wants to try competing on old software they can choose to do so, without worry that someone will find some way to increase the FPS and have an unfair time.

I just checked the autosplitter, it has the IGT splits saved, so we actually probably won't lose anything TBH @Nazzareno.

Edited by the author 2 years ago
RapixOnGaming likes this
Valhalla

@Kaladere Not sure if you meant something to vote anonymously, but in the meantime I prepared this really simplistic Google Sheet to keep track of all preference. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1MsE4jF-UmW53yMPkGwc7XCSUB2S1o8RPVekpNlQSl44/edit?usp=sharing

@Vendettavic I really hope I can change your mind on this and convince you of the goodness of the proposal number 3. Kaladere probably explained better than anyone else. Moving to IGT sorting actually removes any chance of cheating, or unfair advantages (taken in the past, present or future) both intentionally or unintentionally. Nobody would have been wasted their time grinding the game. The real way to evaluate fairly everyone is already available and a low hanging fruit. This is a such important decision that I would love to see an unanimous decision on this rather than a simple majority.

Kaladere likes this
Spain

@RapixOnGaming I don´t find it fair for Xtra, who achieved a legal WR following every actual rule. Then we find that every actual runner are cheating to past runners, and with this timing, we took his WR. It would hurt me a lot if it were me. I remember the exact words of Nazz about loosing his WR too. It is fair the number 3 option? if IGT is really accurate and the time glitch and other things don´t affect it + it fixes the ladder and it´s fair with the runners from the past, i guess so. Is it unfair to take a fairly obtained WR from Xtra? it is. What is fair for everyone? a fresh start. Edit: Yes, i prefer to delete all my grinding than to be unfair to Xtra.

Edited by the author 2 years ago
Saskatchewan, Canada

@Vendettavic How is it fair to Nazzareno that Xtra's game was marginally faster? I think it is more unfair of people losing/gaining time do to the uptime of the PC session. You know what doesn't change between their runs? IGT. It is equal to both of them, neither had an advantage on the other. It is the one variable that is constant between every single run on the leaderboard. No matter what way you go, someone is getting shafted. My vote is to go in the favor of what is the most fair value between all runs not just for WR contention.

Edited by the author 2 years ago
Klumpackis likes this
United Kingdom

Right then since I woke up a bit and had a tea if IGT is not broken ( always knew it was not ) then IGT should be the real time for the boards and not RTA yeah I'm a bit sad that I wont have WR but atleast it will be more fair now to base it of IGT and not who ever has a longer PC session or higher fps etc etc.. hope you all have a good day and a blessed 1 code eles <3

Edited by the author 2 years ago
RapixOnGaming, DeepStackDave and 3 others like this

What a complicated game we are playing (this sentence is useless)... Honestly, deleting the PC version from the leaderboards is the most right decision, as for me. But... If we are not using the "Door Skip" function we are getting fair IGT timer on PC. So, everyone of us has its own speed of the game but everyone has equal IGT.

As I said before, I am for the #3. It could be temporarily... Nevertheless, I would like to try this option as an experimental decision. If everything will be fine or just better then we just keep PC version without IGT... Until new age of troubles begins...

Edited by the author 2 years ago
Vendettavic likes this
Saskatchewan, Canada

@Dimension_Bomber How is deleting the PC leaderboards the correct decision? We have all been using a fair form of tracking time for years now, we just weren't looking in the right place. IGT has always been correct, we just trusted the old guard that they were accurate that it was broken. This decision doesn't involve door skip at all and shouldn't be even considered for this choice, that is something for a later date.

My issue with wiping the whole board is the countless hours EACH and EVERY runner has put into this. If we move to IGT, what is stopping everyone from just resubmitting their PB's. We have valid runs and a correct IGT in all of them. It's a childish decision to flip the table, everyone should just grow up and just accept that IGT has and always will be correct.

Edited by the author 2 years ago
Spain

@Kaladere i find extremely ofensive that u think my pov is childish. I already explained myself. Edit: And i need to grow up too XD

Edited by the author 2 years ago
Saskatchewan, Canada

@If_And_While my whole reply was to "Honestly, deleting the PC version from the leaderboards is the most right decision" It has nothing to do with "What a complicated game we are playing." It was irrelevant to my whole argument why deleting the entire PC board is a mistake.

@Vendettavic I apologize if that was how your took my comment, that wasn't my intention.

If you want to delete the board, we should just wipe every single category and start fresh. So every runner has a fair chance, regardless of platform.

Edited by the author 2 years ago
Spain

@Kaladere U cannot throw the rock and hide the hand. If u are going to apologize saying that I misunderstood it, that is not a good way.

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