Any% No dupes
6 years ago
Germany

a_jar_of_hair_mayo

This attitude is appropriate for categories on speedrun.com/gtamemes - not to proper ones.

E: Yes, I hate you. Take this personal.

Edited by the author 6 years ago
S. likes this

Thanks, I'll be sure to vet my opinions through you first Patrick.

There is like 1 person that is interested in no dupes at a given time, then when they lose interest nobody runs it for months, sometimes even years. Similar to "All Story Missions" thats currently on the lb.

Your examples of already misc'd categories are pretty stretched.

Edited by the author 6 years ago
Lithuania

Popularity shouldn't determine whether the category is on the main leaderboards or not, that is stupid thinking

Shall we take off All Collectibles too? Or categories that have very few active runners?

LaserTrent and thriving like this
Norway

Should "All Oysters" be removed as well. Only 3 runners that submitted 1 year ago.

More people would run and verify more dupeless runs if they were in the main boards. The category in itself is not a meme, it's just Any% without being able to skip missions so yeah, it's slower but you test yourself to see how fast you can do all main story missions as fast as you can.

England

I wasn't going to care/fight for this until I saw this thread https://www.speedrun.com/gtamemes/thread/ecs2r and this quote by English_ben "The only reason any% no SSU exists in VC is because regular any% is awful."

Now let me show you my argument for having at least GTA:SA No dupes be on the main page.

So arguments against the run are as follows:

  1. No active runners - I can see 5 runs submitted in the last 3 months to the Meme leaderboards (which I didn't even know existed until a couple of days ago, wonder how many other people are like that?) To me that sounds like a pretty healthy speedrun category to me, was even a new WR 10 days ago.

  2. Run isn't different enough to no dupes to be classed as its own run. Oh I agree with this, until the start of 555 and then things begin to change drastically during the run. The only real similarity is that you still have to visit the same cities. I would say the run is completely different from one another. The main reason I say this is because during a standard any% once the duping began I have to spend the ENTIRE run explaining to viewers what the hell is going on, this may be much better now a days as people have gotten more used to it, but trust me the run is extremely different. IF you say they aren't you may as well say a game like Portal No OoB is similar to Portal Any% because you know, you do some of the same puzzles.

  3. Only the fastest run is valid for Any%. OK no argument for this one, any% should always be the fastest however not everyone runs the fastest category for games, hell not everyone even runs on the fastest hardware for other games, does that make the runs they do invalid and absolutely stupid? I don't think so. That hardware they are using and that category they are running still have a route and an optimal time and make it just as valid as any category you run. Remember this is about having fun.

  4. Would make the leaderboards look unattractive, unappealing and messy. Yeah this one is dumb, why can't it just look like this? https://www.speedrun.com/sm64#120_Star . Really messy right?

So what do you think? Can we just do the civil thing on this and save us 2 weeks of back and forth where you will eventually decide to do exactly what I am asking? Thanks!

tduva, Demetrius and 5 others like this
Norway

@Tirean "4. Would make the leaderboards look unattractive, unappealing and messy. Yeah this one is dumb, why can't it just look like this? https://www.speedrun.com/sm64#120_Star . Really messy right?"

Being against the run for that kind of reason is beyond stupid in my opinion. Is this supposed to be that we're trying to decorate on the main boards and make them look really nice and clean by adding very limited amount of categories. Here's another example https://www.speedrun.com/doom1 with multiple types of categories and multiple types of plays in each of them (including IL's). Some type of plays are empty but stays as anyone can post at any time which will eventually happen.

Portugal

I had a small discussion about this in discord so I'll just post this here in case anyone cares. I am in no way advocating for or against any change, just want to post my thoughts

[11:56 PM] Powdinet: Any% dupeless is a good idea until you realize that gang territory skip is not a real dupe by the definition (the missions are never being executed at the same time) and that om0 manipulation is still allowed (which could potentially allow strats not possible in old Any%)(edited) [11:56 PM] Powdinet: If people come up with a good enough definition and actually run the thing, I don't see a reason not to include it [11:58 PM] KZ_Frew: You could define duping in this case as any one mission being completed twice, and om0 manip goes both ways I guess.. you could say it's a cool way to breathe fresh air into an antiquated/static route, or you could say it's against the spirit of dupeless and disallow it [11:59 PM] KZ_Frew: I thought personally having dupeless on the boards wasn't worth it because of the lack of traffic for the category, but lelreset is right and popularity shouldn't designate what is on the boards. Also in lieu of that, adding it to main boards could encourage activity February 11, 2018 [12:00 AM] Powdinet: "You could define duping in this case as any one mission being completed twice" You could, but it goes against the definition of the term people knowledgeable about the game and that research it use, so it would lead to even more confusion. I've already seen people who thought instapasses weren't dupes because "the mission doesn't duplicate, it just passes instantly". [12:01 AM] PowerSlaveAlf: Dupeless is fine and a category I like running, at least for the other GTA games, but I presonally don't see the reason why SA dupeless would be on the main leaderboards if 3 and VC aren't [12:01 AM] Powdinet: this all stems from the very poor use of the word duping though, as it was introduced during a time we didn't understand the game as well as we do now [12:03 AM] Powdinet: I think Any% no mission flag manipulation (or something along those lines with a better name) would be better than simply dupeless, as it not only removes the "symptom" but also the "disease" [12:04 AM] Powdinet: in other words, removing the glitch, and not the consequence of the glitch [12:04 AM] Lelresetfeg: what if g4l starts on om0 [12:04 AM] Lelresetfeg: does it make the run invalid [12:05 AM] Powdinet: on cases like those you can ignore it as long as they aren't abused, though it would be entirely up to the mods [12:05 AM] Lelresetfeg: should we ignore accidental cheats then [12:06 AM] Powdinet: no, because those affect the game state more than a simple mission flag switch [...] [12:07 AM] Powdinet: reminder than VC had 7 Assets on the main leaderboard before it got removed due to lack of popularity

(this last message implies that it could be added as an experiment and removed if people don't really run it after a certain period of time)

tduva, H0rHe, and PowerSlaveAlfons like this
East Riding of Yorkshire, England

Personally I'm not bothered about this either way, but VC is very different because of SSU. You cannot compare VC's situation with no SSU to SA any% vs dupeless

Edited by the author 6 years ago

Well, for III and VC, would it really harm them to have dupeless% too? An easy way to end any conflict over this is to try it for a little while, if nobody uses it and it's dead, then the issue wouldn't need to be revisited for some time/unless something substantial changed (like SSU).

I don't think SSU and SA dupes are really comparable, but does that really matter? It's one extra tab on a board that's nowhere near full (excl. the list of collectables, but they have their own drop down anyway), and it looks like people want to run it. I think saying "the extent of dupes in SA isn't as significant as the SSU in VC, therefore we shouldn't add dupeless% on that ground" is pretty arbitrary.

Nobody here is asking for changes to any%, there's no dispute on what any% is, so I don't think "it's not any% really" is a good argument either.

LaserTrent likes this
East Riding of Yorkshire, England

I think saying "the extent of dupes in SA isn't as significant as the SSU in VC, therefore we shouldn't add dupeless% on that ground" is pretty arbitrary.

i'm not convinced anyone said this

It's what I kind of inferred from Mh's post, make of it what you will.

Poland

Why don't you guys make voting just like for ginput, A for putting dupeless on main board, B for staing on meme board. I'm voting for A.

United States

I'd like to give it another shot myself. I'm for it

Thunder, LaserTrent, and SpeedyFolf like this
Lithuania

https://i.imgur.com/SF9aww9.png Once AGAIN, the mods acting like over-important snowflakes This guy has nothing to do with SA - never actively ran the game or nothing, but gets a say over everyone else because he started running VC in 2013 - makes sense, right guys? Let's have the GTA IV mods moderate GTA V with this logic.

https://i.imgur.com/uS1avM2.png If it depends on popularity then remove the misc categories and ASM because they have hardly anyone running them.

I'm pretty amazed that there are people out there that support the mods. D E M O C R A C Y - spell it with me @SAMods

Edited by the author 6 years ago
LaserTrent and storm849 like this
Friesland, Netherlands

It's not just popularity that determines whether a run should be added, there are other factors of course. This is why collectible runs are present.

It is precisely because of these other factors that any% no dupes isn't on the main boards. It is a run very similar to an already existing and more popular run, but with a somewhat arbitrary restriction imposed on it. Something which doesn't apply to collectible runs, as they have a clearly defined end goal with no restrictions on HOW to do it and are in no way similar to other categories, even ones like 100%. (with maybe an exception for USJs).

It is for this very reason that 'it needs to be popular' becomes a requirement. Because the category lacks in all the other departments, it needs to make up for it somewhere else: Popularity being the most obvious choice.

Personally, I think any% is a shit category regardless of whether you dupe or not. If it was up to me, I'd move true any% to the fucking memeboards as well. Fortunately, we have mods that don't let feelings get in the way of rational thinking, and thus true any% is on the main boards and any% with a few restrictions is not.

The only real question I have is: When is a run popular enough? Maybe we could set up a SMART goal so that people who want this have something to work towards and everyone knows what's up?

Edited by the author 6 years ago
Hampshire, England

I think the point of "it isn't different enough to be worth it" should be between All Story Missions and Dupeless, not Dupeless and Any%. All Story Missions is a much better definition of Dupeless for various reasons (better name, in game justification, ease of understanding etc etc), but just has the unfortunate problem of requiring Zero+Heists, it's also not future proof (which I'll get into later). So for that reason I could be in favour of adding a Dupeless category (perhaps replacing ASM but that's a different discussion)

If any category is to be added though then I would like it to have certain things:

  1. Future Proofing I hate it when a glitch is named in a category name. "Any% Dupeless" is fine until another glitch with another name (instapass?!?) is found/implemented into the route which then causes another change to the whole category to be necessary. Even No OM0 or something like that is flawed because who knows what could be found in the future will the goal of specifically not changing OM0 to get around the rules of the category which then ruins it because of:

  2. The point/"soul" of the Category being obvious What people REALLY want in an "Any% Dupeless" category is "Any% but without all the glitches that make it different from what it used to be/make it hard/some variation of this" which again relates back to Future Proofing being an issue

To that end, I would really prefer if we discussed using a different name. Something like "Any% No Major Glitches" obviously fits but a few people get riled up at the idea of discussing WHAT IS A GLITCH/MAJOR GLITCH and I don't blame them, but from how I see it from other speedruns is you either use an in game justification for banning a glitch(es) (like: 120/70 Star from SM64, MST from OOT, 11 Exit from SMW, or All Story Missions here) OR if nothing in game fits what you need then you have to fall back onto Any% Glitchless/No Major Glitchess/Glitched (Glitchless from OOT, Glitched from Super Meat Boy (plz no), Any% Glitchless from Pokemon Red)

In any case I'm not too agasint adding a category with the purpose of "Any% but without all the glitches that make it different from what it used to be/make it hard/some variation of this"

[small]This is all just my opinion and not what I'm just going to do on my own because I'm a mod if others disagree despite what some others think and oh god having to add this fucking disclaimer is ridiculous[/small]

EDIT: In response to lel's pic of MH he said this when I called him out on stuff he previously said https://i.imgur.com/Xt8PXzo.png Also if the people who were here first don't mod then who does? There was no one else when we started. We wanted to add more mods but there isn't anyone suitable/wanting to. And I just don't know where to start with the democracy thing. When I have ever not been democratic, I've always tried so hard to do what everyone else wants, or ask everyone for their opinion. When you said that about me I just blocked you, I can't listen to you anymore.

Can we all just ignore lel I'm so sick of the constant contradictions and having to argue into a black hole but I have to respond to him here because if no one does then others might take him seriously and I can't block him here. His post has nothing to do with the thread but I can't delete it because if I do it's going to be called out as censorship.

Edited by the author 6 years ago
LaserTrent, KZ_FREW and 2 others like this
Lithuania

The moderating is a mess SOMETIMES, and when i say the "mods" i obviously don't mean all 5 of them.

I said the mods aren't a problem, but the way they act sometimes is - there's nothing wrong with MH being mod.

You're constantly being babies that need to get special attention because you're constantly acting over-important - it is a CONSTANT fight with you all to get anything done - it's so crazy to me that people actually get behind the mods.

Can you explain why shouldn't putting a category on a leaderboards be sorted by democracy instead of 5 people? YES, i said that, and if people want LS% or whatever else "nonsense" (in your opinion) and the MAJORITY want it on the leaderboards, then let it be. If you don't agree, then this is an example of acting over-important Do the mods have an IQ of 200 and know what is right or wrong 100% of the time? Are yall some fucking speedrun experts? Even if you look at the old "bring LS% to the leaderboard" threads the ammount of people who want it vs the ammount who don't - there's no big difference. Even looking at this Thread, seems like more people want Dupeless on the boards than people who don't.

Nice one grabbing a completely out of context picture to trick people who aren't in the discord.

Here's MH saying something similar, now unless he has some kind of specific thing for joking about being power hungry, i think he is very serious when he says this - i can guarantee if you look through his messages you'll find more stuff like this https://i.imgur.com/oRFUrca.png

"when I called him out on stuff he previously said" Call it out here and i will tell you why you're wrong. But be sure to not post something taken out of context like you like to do.

Mods are getting called out btw, time to to abuse power and lock the thread.

Edited by the author 6 years ago
MToms127 likes this
England

I can see the argument for a name change on Any% Dupeless being valid, especially if we want to keep it without any form of future instapasses. Now what could that name be? Any% glitchless? Any% restricted? Any% no om0 manipulation? Either way though no matter what the name on the leaderboard is called i'd still call it NO dupes in my stream title.

Also on popularity, To me if just 1 person is running the category actively the category is then active but I am sure we all have our own definition of what is and isn't classed as active.

Also on mod notes. I used to be a mod here and would occasionally help with the verifying of runs and discuss crap on the forums.However I was removed without as much of a "Hey Tirean, we are tidying up the mods and trying to have fewer people (we had quite a bit) do you mind if we remove you as you don't verify as much runs as the other?" Yes, I am still a little bitter about that.

Edited by the author 6 years ago
LaserTrent likes this
Hampshire, England

This is going to go off topic and turn into a flame war (and then need to be locked, but then that's censorship of calling out the mods which I've directly addressed and tried to avoid previously but apparently that happens) but sure I'll directly address everything you just said.

[big]The moderating is a mess SOMETIMES, and when i say the "mods" i obviously don't mean all 5 of them.[/big] Not sure what you mean by a mess sometimes but I assume it's your later points so I won't address that. Yes lumping all of us together is a bad idea and you should stop doing it (you continued to do it) and I don't know which mods you are talking about exactly.

[big]I said the mods aren't a problem, but the way they act sometimes is - there's nothing wrong with MH being mod.[/big] I don't know what you mean by the mods aren't a problem and nothing is wrong with MH being a mod. You are constantly calling him out for being mainly a VC runner (you literally did this a few posts up, or am I taking what you said out of context?). He was added because he has a history of modding VC well, and there was no one else who is suitable/wanted to. I also don't get what you mean by the way we act, I assume you mean non-professionally and saying stuff that is bad out of context like MH has? We're not professionals, I try to act professionally and I'm a "nice guy" online but that doesn't mean others do/have to. If MH wants to call people crybabies he's allowed to do that as much as you are allowed to call us/me babies.

[big]You're constantly being babies[/big] [small][small]oh hey look at that[/small][/small] [big]that need to get special attention because you're constantly acting over-important - it is a CONSTANT fight with you all to get anything done - it's so crazy to me that people actually get behind the mods.[/big] I'm not sure what you mean by needing special attention or acting over important, you keep saying this though so I guess it has something to do with the rest of what you said. You might not be talking about me though but your lumping us all together so I don't know. It being a fight to get anything done personally is because modding this is a lot of work. I'm not doing this for any reason other than wanting to. I need to want to do this. All the negativity hurts motivation quite a lot. Sure I know I am pretty lazy with stuff (hows those rules going Josh?) but I'm doing it in my spare time for no reason other than wanting to.

[big]Can you explain why shouldn't putting a category on a leaderboards be sorted by democracy instead of 5 people?[/big] This threads existence and the Category Extensions existence should be enough proof of a "democracy" here. Even in a democracy there are still people at the top who actually implement these decisions and have the final say. If every mod action could be put down to a simple vote and no one actually had to be mod then we could try that. But no system exists, and I'm not sure it would even be a good idea because not everyone who could vote actually has an informed opinion on the matter of voting. For example I spent the time and looked around at other speedruns to see if they have had similar issues with categories and how it effected them, how many other people in this democracy just want a thing and post? I don't know, you need to filter this, take educated guesses. Maybe we're wrong, but someone has to do it, someone has to filter the flood of information and user opinions.

[big]*YES, i said that, and if people want LS% or whatever else "nonsense" (in your opinion) and the MAJORITY want it on the leaderboards, then let it be. *[/big] Again, issues with pure democracies and first past the post voting. Again, I've actually done the legwork to look into this (I don't mean to sound like "LOOK AT MY 200 IQ" but it's what I did) and a pure democracy isn't always the best solution so just because the MAJORITY want it doesn't always make it correct.

[big]If you don't agree, then this is an example of acting over-important[/big] I'm not sure how to respond to this, I hope I explained why this isn't the case above. Isn't this kind of statement a logical fallacy or a ultimatum or something? (words are hard)

[big]Do the mods have an IQ of 200 and know what is right or wrong 100% of the time?[/big] I like to think I put more effort into thinking about/discussing these things more than the average user (as previously stated here) so I would have a better understanding then average. I'm not right or wrong 100% (and I've backed down on things plenty of times(toggle frame limiter am i rite?)) and it doesn't make my opinion correct over others, but it means I have some leeway here.

[big]Are yall some fucking speedrun experts?[/big] I mean, I've been doing this a long time (watching for longer), I'm a "professional" speedrunner/streamer/content creator, ran a podcast about speedrunning for awhile, do research into other runs, moderated SA since SpeedrunRecords began, attended and help run ESA for several years. This response makes me sound like a self-righteous prick obviously but it's the truth. I'm not sure who would count as a "speedrun expert" (I wouldn't call myself that) but I feel like I'm a lot closer to it than the average user here yes. This doesn't make my word final on everything, and I'm not "better" than other people I just have obsoletely no life compared to others. If anything being a "speedrun expert" makes me a worse person.

[big]Even if you look at the old "bring LS% to the leaderboard" threads the ammount of people who want it vs the ammount who don't - there's no big difference. Even looking at this Thread, seems like more people want Dupeless on the boards than people who don't[/big] OK, lets say it's not far off 50% (even if it is/isn't). A change to the current format/rules/country SHOULD require a higher than 51% vote. Again this is the problem with first past the post voting and pure democracies as I've stated previously. You seem to believe that if 51% of people want something then everything should be changed immediately to fit this. I personally don't believe this is the case but this is turning into polictal discussion. (Also who said Any% Dupeless isn't being added? We're discussing it, I'm even in favour of it!?!)

[big]Nice one grabbing a completely out of context picture to trick people who aren't in the discord.[/big] I mean, you literally did exactly the same thing with your pictures and provided no context but yes, I did do that. It was because you did it, I was doing it back to you. The contradictiveness here is astounding. I feel the context is relevant to my point so I felt it was OK, as did you with your pictures probably. But yes we should probably stop posting out of context pictures.

[big]Here's MH saying something similar, now unless he has some kind of specific thing for joking about being power hungry, i think he is very serious when he says this - i can guarantee if you look through his messages you'll find more stuff like this[/big] Without context it's hard to know what he means by "won't change anything though". Does he mean his own mind? Does it mean the popular opinion? Does he mean as you want it to mean that nothing in this thread will change anything on the leaderboard? I don't know, perhaps he is shitposting, who knows. But he is not a professional so, again, he can be as much of a dick online as you can. But he has posted in this thread, and this thread exists to discuss this, and he is not the only mod. If I have to add a category myself without MH wanting it then I will I guess?

[big]"when I called him out on stuff he previously said"[/big] Call it out here and i will tell you why you're wrong. But be sure to not post something taken out of context like you like to do. See, the difference here is that I don't want to sit here, go through a load of "proof" and call someone out. While you seem to attack people/mods all the time I'm quite happy to either just put up with it or leave and not attack people. This probably makes me a "pussy" or whatever, and you'd be right. I hate this conflict, I want to avoid it at any costs. I guess this is a flaw of mine but I'm only human so I'll admit to that. I've seen enough from you to make my own mind up, I don't feel the need to try to make you change (as if arguing online ever changed anyone)

[big]Mods are getting called out btw, time to to abuse power and lock the thread.[/big] I've directly tried to avoid this exact issue before, it's even in my rules post about how to best avoid this problem and how I avoid moderation before to not cause censorship. I'm not sure what makes you think that calling out mods gets the thread locked, I try so hard to avoid this problem.

Edited by the author 6 years ago
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