I need a specific reason the lobby screen is needed to verify a run, because in looking over the footage of my run found here: you can see I show the end screen of the same game immediately after the run completed. If there is any question to whether the footage is legitimate when it comes to the issue of "is it a KYF match or an actual online qued match" you can see in the end game footage I took a sacrificial cake as an offering.

You cannot take a sacrificial cake as an offering in KYF mode (or any offering that affects blood point earnings for that matter), so this proves the footage is from the only other game mode available, (the online randomly que'd normal gameplay). So therefore the footage should be accepted as a legitimate run, unless there is some other evidence that is needed or some other question of legitimacy that needs to be answered, and if there is a question of legitimacy, we need to know what the questions are so the proof in whatever form it takes, can be given with full transparency. (Not to mention KYF doesn't offer blood points to my knowledge either, and you can see I gained bloodpoints after the match too..)

I also want to ask why it is the only moderators accepting or declining runs are moderators that themselves hold records. Is it not possible to have moderators who simply own and understand the game but don't compete be the ones to accept or decline the entries? It seems suspicious to me that the only mods are record holders themselves. Now, they very well may be acting legit and simply have preformed an oversight, but it seems necessary to me that there should be some oversight by a non-record holding moderator (perhaps of another game on speedrun.com) simply to remove any possibility of a moderator (or several) rejecting runs to make their own leaderboard status seem better than it might actually be. It is entirely possible that is not the case here, but there is the possibility it is the case here and I feel there should be something done to remove that possibility moving forward, and I think anyone who believes in fairness would agree.

I hope you feel I've acted fairly in approaching this, and understand I'm not accusing someone of cheating on the leaderboards, I am merely pointing out the possibility of it and asking that the possibility be removed. I would gladly discuss this in messages with the moderators but the site requires 7 days of membership before you can message others (which is way too long, a day is adequate, 2 is pushing it but acceptable... a week is insane.) so I'm left with only this post as an alternative. Sorry if I have offended anyone, but having to resubmit my run several times only to get 2 lines of text as a response without much detail is a bit infuriating. (And that might not be the mods fault either, it could be a character limit or something imposed by the site, which again is seemingly the site's restrictions causing issues like the 7 days no messages thing.) I do appreciate that the mods have gotten answers back quickly (in 1 days time rather than 1-3 weeks like the site tells you upon submitting a run) but I want more to go off of then things like "we need to see the lobby" I need to know /why/ do you need to see the lobby screen. What information/proof are you looking for, is it for proof it isn't a KYF game? Then there can be evidence in the end screen where it shows scoring and such if it is or isn't a KYF match. Is it to prove something else? If so what? Tell me so I can offer something other than what I don't have to prove the legitimacy of the run ya know?

We need a Main menu Lobby not just for proof its not KYF but also to check for splicing. Runs could easily be posted in its place. We can compare the starting BP and ending BP to check its legit. I know having the survivors at the end helps match the names but it is possible that an entry could know the people and invite them into a KYF and then record a run, submit and splice it in, or change the names to match said survivors and then record a game. Comparing the outfits pre-game to ingame also provides another layer of validity. I did try and look through you VODs on twtich to see if I could find it but as you said, Vods are only held for a certain time, and with it being on Haddonfield, thats at least 6 weeks ago, so I couldnt find it.

Also save editing can (and has) happened. Save edited files tend not to add BP at the end of the game. I do think your run is legit for what its worth, so hopefully this has given you a bit more information as to why we need the main menu lobby. Yes 90% of it is to check its not KYF but the other 10% is this above.

With mods posting runs, your idea does have a point, and Crowns no longer posts runs since he has become mod, but pretty much every single game on Speedrun.com has mods post runs, not just DbD. Also, finding people who don't submit runs who want to mod its quite tricky. Usually Me and Jamie do the accepting/rejecting and if theres an issue or a problem, Crowns acts as a 3rd Party Neutral. When a run is questionable, we always get a 2nd opinion, and we can not verify our own runs either.

In regards to sending message before 7 days, I didnt know that was a thing, but I guess thats a speedrun.com thing, not us. We don't work for this website so we cant change this.

We do have a discord if you want to discuss this in more depth as it is more active there. Theres also no 7 day cooldown so you do not have to wait to message. Also, given that me and Jamie have already rejected, we will let Crowns take up your resubmission to make it fair, in case you are still unhappy about this.

Crowns has been here for a very long time, he does have runs in the DBD community but doesn't play much now, he still has knowledge that we can learn from. Yeah like Howezy says there are indicators on the lobby that we have to fact check within the game, It used to be you needed the main menu in there too but that was removed.

OK, well the end game screen also shows that I earned toward an achievement in the tomes does that not further prove the legitimacy of the end game screen matching the game? I made the same progress in the game as is recorded in the end game on that rift challenge. Sure it might not be outfits on survivors but if you compare the earned emblems, to what happened in game, the end game scoring to the match, the fact it can't be KYF if you had a BP altering add-on and earned points. I mean you would have to compare a lot of different things to make the end screen perfectly match the footage scoring. Because you'd have to have what, the same number of pallet breaks exactly, the same number of gens completed, the exact same number of hooks, the same number of seconds within a chase even... Like the act of trying to fake a run to match would be an amazing amount of work, and then getting four people to help you do that? Wow. The planning on that would be insane.

Can save edited files add to challenges from the rift? I don't know because idk how save file edits work. If you had something that could explain what that is there might be something else that proves the validity.

But if I understand right essentially I have to disprove it's a splice, which if it were a splice (to play devil's advocate a minute) I'd have had to played an online game and gotten a perfect score to match the footage of a KYF match when it comes to gen completion, hooks, chase time, and other scoring events, 4 of which would be entirely out of my control (because the rift challenge should prove the end game screen is a real match end screen with the bloodpoint modifying offering), and match it to a KYF set of footage. And I'd have to match the names somehow in the game, to the end screen. But I can't change the end screen names, because we can tell those names are from an online match so that's out, so i'd have to change the names in the KYF match somehow. So the new question would be, is it possible to even affect what names would appear in a KYF match as the players. But then further, I'd still have to match several types of scoring events perfectly to get the same emblems as the considered legit end screen game, including the amount of progress toward a rift challenge.

OH and I just noticed I earned a one time achievement from steam during the screen where I would have to be expected to have spliced if it was a splice. So all the evidence together has to prove this couldn't have been doctored in that way or a save file edit right? Like there is just too many things that would have to sync up perfectly right? And no way to have spliced right? the achievement links the two screens together and you can see the achievement earned during the play through. That has to cover everything right?

You are missing the point, these rules are not just about you, we have to have rules for all players and we have to make them uniform accross the board, all the rules we have in place are there for a reason and we have learnt from experience what is required and what is not required, We have explained why we need to see the lobby before the game and not after and that will not change going forward.

I do agree that editing a save file and splicing is very hard and not really worth it for a run unless you are going for a world record run.

Either way rules are rules and we have to make them and stick to them.

Rules are only rules because of the purpose they have for intent. The intent of these rules are to keep people from submitting runs that are false runs. If you have reason to believe this run is legit then it deserves to be on the leaderboards. The rules are there as a guideline to help ensure the truth is maintained. And if you believe the truth is that this run is legitimate then you should honor it by putting it on the leaderboard. If you don't then you are effectively dishonoring the leaderboard and instituting rules that protect previous runs which were accepted and in effect giving them a higher standing than they SHOULD have because you are rejecting runs which you know to be legit on a technicality.

I'm not saying abandon the rules, I'm saying make the rules allow for other evidence to be presented in order to allow potential runs which are legit to be counted. If we can prove that this run is legit than we can prove other runs are legit too, it might mean a little more effort, but as a result you can see a true leaderboard rather than an arbitrary leaderboard that isn't correct.

The pursuit should be to have the most true leaderboard possible.

If someone is capable of proving something is legit, then it should be honored. If someone is capable of proving something is not legit then is should be removed. That's the bottom line. Otherwise if someone is capable of following the rules but is found to have a fake run later would you keep it? The same should be true if the situation is reversed where someone is found to have a legitimate run by proof outside the rules but still proving it is a true run it should be counted. Maybe you have to do more work to add points up and compare some more things, but all the evidence right now points very clearly to this being a legitimate run and all runs should be considered on a case by case basis of evidence. If at some point someone questions the legitimacy of my run and says it should be disqualified because it is a fake or edited run, then by all means you should remove it, but at the same time if later it is found there is an explanation that proves it's still valid then it would need to be reinstated.

The end result should be that the leaderboards are as true as possible. If you are denying a run on the grounds of "well rules are rules" then you are subtracting a run from the leaderboards simply because a box isn't checked... not because the run is actually illegitimate. The overall purpose to the rules is to ensure legit runs are counted, and illegitimate runs are disqualified. If this is a legit run (and we have proven I think by now that it is) then count it and add it to the leaderboard. If at some point someone can come to you and say something like "Well actually you can see the clip is edited right here" and point to a clear discrepancy which disproves the whole run, like say a name between the two screens was spelled wrong, or the background somewhere doesn't line up like it should or the points are off or SOMETHING then yeah, nix the run from the board. But if I've gone above and beyond here to prove it is legit by pointing out the scoring matches, the achievement was earned and shows between the transition of game and end game (AND IS BEHIND MY VIEW COUNTER FROM TWITCH EVEN!) then you need to honor it.

Hiding behind the "rules are rules" excuse is just siding with an excuse that can someday protect your own record and thus give yourself more prestige. It doesn't matter if you aren't submitting new runs any more, that could change any day you choose it to. It doesn't matter you ARE on the leaderboard. So to gatekeep on the grounds that "rules are rules" is a decision that benefits YOU and not the validity of the leaderboard.

If the proof is there that the end screen is present, and the footage matches the end screen AND the steam achievement is present between the two screens then that should be enough proof to disprove any claims of save edits and splices and thus prove the run is legit. If some day the run gets disproved then fine issue a decision to remove it and I'll be the one to pay the price and embarrassment, that part is on me. But if you know this is a legit run because the proof tell you so, the rules are just getting in the way of the truth. You job as judge in this is to find the truth. If you know what that is then act like it. In places like where I come from in the world if the truth is found to go against the rules the judge sides with the truth and the rules are adjusted to make room for the truth. (That is actually the purpose of judges.) I see no reason that can't be preformed here.

Further I'm citing the websites rules here on verification:

"A run should be added it meets the burden of proof the game's community expects for the legitimacy of the run. It is neither "innocent until proven guilty" nor "guilty until proven innocent" With the information provided, does the community of the game feel that the run is legitimate, or does the community feel they need further proof? A run does not have to be proved to be cheated to not meet the burden of proof."

I've given enough proof that there should be no feeling that there is not enough proof. So it should be counted.

We can see one such bit of evidence in Howsey's admission here: "I do think your run is legit for what its worth," from his prior post.

So it seems like the belief is that the run is legit. So it meets the criteria to be counted.

Really, Listen, I think your write up is very compelling and you can argue and plead as much as you like, my opinion still stands, we have rules for a reason and these rules have to be maintained so everyone is in the same boat, the way you are trying to justify your run to being legitimate is not the focus of what I am trying to say, Lets just say for example, it is a legit, We are not going to spend over an hour on a run which is less than 10m long trying to work out based on BP, clothes, mathmatical equations and other things to legitimise a run, We have a lot of runs daily and we all have lives of our own. Rules are here to stay and I (for one) are not going to change the way we run the site, we have made these rules to accommodate everyone and that is not going to change because you are unhappy with the result.

The oldest rules also included the main menu before every run, we had this removed since almost 80% of all runs would be a reject these days. We have a standard ruling and that is that we need the Pre-Game lobby. This ruling will not change since there is no reason to split up / give each category their own ruling.

Please make sure that your run is within our ruleset so we don't have any issues next time.