Request an RNG Manipulation filter for Dr. Mario Speedruns.
3 years ago
New Jersey, USA

Hey!

I'm a long time Dr. Mario lover, but new to speedrun.com and speedrunning in general.

From watching videos of the top 4 on the leaderboard for the Levels 0-10 speedrun, I realized that many of the levels are largely repeating themselves.

If I understand this correctly, there must be a way for speedrunners to manipulate the RNG which generates viruses at the beginning of each level.

Since it would provide a huge advantage on speedruns, shouldn't there AT LEAST be a way to filter out the results that have used RNG manipulation?

Or if not, why not?

It is fairly easy to check for by simply taking screenshots at the beginning of each level and comparing them.

I would be willing to help review videos if it is simply a matter of needing more manpower.

Interested to hear everyone's thoughts on this. Thanks!

Neural89 and Razorflame like this
Wisconsin, USA

There is an RNG manipulation for the NES version of Dr. Mario and since the category isn't called 0-10 "glitchless", manipulations are allowed. You have two choices in this instance: learn the RNG manipulation to put yourself on the same playing field as them, or keep playing the way you have been playing and improve at your own pace, and don't worry about what the top level players are doing.

This only really matters if you plan on getting the #1 spot in this game, and given your current ranking, I don't think you need to be worried about this at this point in time.

As for a filter for this, the easiest way to do this would be to add a "glitchless" sub-category for each currently existing category and then move all of the runs that are known to not use manipulations to the "glitchless" sub-category. However, even doing this would uproot well over 75-90 runs and in my opinion, would not really matter in the long run. There is no way to filter out manipulated runs from non-manipulated runs using the already present filter.

Overall, while this would be nice, it isn't practical to implement without upending the entire leaderboards and having to move hundreds of runs into new categories.

Arizona, USA

Would it even be considered a glitch or manipulation? From the little testing I did, it appeared that the levels are generated based on the frame, (from power on) when you start the first level. If you don't reset the console between levels then the next level you play will always be consistent, assuming you always start on the same frame. Starting on the same frame isn't terribly difficult since you can just mash start when you power on the NES.

Ukraine

We separated the categories (with resets / without resets), but now we need any help with sorting all runs, including obsolete (there is 360 runs, it's too many for two people). Thank you πŸ™‚

Midawi, Razorflame, and NeGAtiv4k like this
Wisconsin, USA

@Neural89 I'd be willing to help you do so.

Midawi likes this
California, USA

Just so everyone in the community is clear on what counts as RNG Manipulation,

If I reset or top out the game in the middle of a speedrun, does it count as RNG Manipulation?

Ukraine

Yep, any reset in the middle of the run count as RNG Manip (even if you just change speed on high levels). Only full game patterns (regularized 0-10 or 0-20 set) is not rng manip.

Midawi and Wingfryer like this
Virginia, USA

Topouts are manipulation, too, even if there's no reset?

Ukraine

@dmwit sorry, what means "topout" in this game? If "game over", then of course. Any new start of the level in the middle of the run count as manip.

Midawi likes this
Virginia, USA

Well, the rule is clear at least. Currently it's not obvious to me how one could use a game over to manipulate the RNG in a sensible way, if they hadn't already manipulated the RNG at the start of the run anyway. I guess it's information-theoretically possible, but seems like it would be kinda hard for a human to do the necessary computations in time.

Virginia, USA

Ah! I see: the concern is that somebody repeatedly tops out until they see a level they like.

That makes perfect sense now.

California, USA

I'm justing posting this so the entire community understands the new changes.

Based on what we talked about. Here's what counts as RNG Manipulation: -Resetting the game in the middle of the run -A "Game Over" in the middle of the run

Edited by the author 3 years ago
Midawi likes this
Arizona, USA

so fishing for ideal boards at the very beginning is allowed? Like someone could constantly reset until they found a board they liked and run with it? Also, any game over, even if accidental, causes the run to be considered manipulated?

Ukraine

@Sammynorth Yes, because it’s impossible to track. In my pb I used LiveSplit, but many people started out from audio cue. For example, Konatai learned my 0-10 pattern, but visually this is unprovable. In fact, in this game only 0-20 can be considered as indicator of a good skill, since it's impossible to learn and even impossible to choose which pattern is better. In 0-10 everyone can learn some good pattern for WR, it's your choice.

Edited by the author 3 years ago
Portland, OR, USA

I'd advise you change the leaderboard rules then as it still implies that you can reset or top out and start over.

Midawi and Neural89 like this
New York City, NY, USA

@Neural89: As a follow up question, does loading a save state prior to the start of a run in order to save time trying for a specific pattern count as RNG manipulation? For example, loading a state of the game saved after 14 or 15 seconds on the level selection menu if the desired pattern comes up at, say, the 15.1 second mark?

Ukraine

@tetraly save states is forbidden for all NES games (like and turbo buttons). This is a single rule and nothing to add here. Just because you can't do this on original cartridge. So save states is forbidden for all categories.

Edited by the author 2 years ago
Ukraine

Due to popular demand I made a global editing of the leaderboard for a better perception. Now there are only two simple categories, without resets and game overs during the run. All runs with resets, game overs, glitches etc going to miscellaneous, as unpopular. Now should be good :)

evad999 and Demian_Neville like this