So I spent hours last night and this morning reading and typing up a response. Left for a few hours before giving it a final review and BAM, more comments. I also haven't slept so I apologise if I ramble on a bit.

Personally as someone who is just starting out with running, yet has been watching KH runs for over a year, I really do believe that requiring video proof is the right choice while grandfathering in any runs that have already been accepted. And while there should be exceptions, I think that should be based purely on the game and not the runner (like DDD). Getting video proof isn't hard, though it may be a little time consuming if you choose to upload to youtube. It's simply another piece of equipment and the one with the cheapest possible cost. No one ever told me that I needed to stream to run the game, it's just something that is pretty common in the twitch community where most of the new runners will come from and most discussions of running the game have turned into discussions of doing it online (hello races!). I have been encouraged to stream not for the video proof but for the fact that people can help me, they can see what I did wrong, see where I'm struggling, they could encourage me to do better. I highly doubt I would hate Clayton nearly as much as I do if I had recorded it and been able to ask people for help. Any discussion of equipment has also been very positive and about using anything, not about spending money to look professional, which is very appreciated.

While there will be a transitional period of people that didn't think they needed video, if you treat it as a necessary part of the leaderboards then the people in your chat will feel that it is a natural progression from practicing/doing runs as a community member to being part of the leaderboard community.

I don't believe for a second that you need to run the game to be a part of the community in general, yet the leaderboards are also their own small community inside of the much larger one. Just having a time doesn't make you a part of that. I don't know if you guys have ever realized just how professional of a community that you came across as. Seriously. You do community submissions, the couch at GDQs are full of people that know what they are doing and you give equal show time to everyone active in the community of runners. I am a viewer in a lot of different communities but none of them has been as welcoming and as professional as this one. Chats are always happy about any small improvement that someone does even if it's just someone bitching about finally beating a boss they struggled with or if they finally completed a run. You are all what make the community welcoming, the leaderboards are what gives it a place to be competitive.

As for the cut-off, Dutch kind of pointed out something that directly affects us newer runners: your times aren't reasonable to people that aren't sure of what they are doing. I don't think I've ever met someone who is just starting out with KH 1.5 Beginner that hasn't said that they don't think they could do sub 4. (Yesterday I was given 4 hours and 4.5-5 hours as two different times that are "good" after pressuring people for a solid number, personally I was thinking closer to 5 hours as being something I should be proud of) But I have met a lot of people that want to know what a good run would be and the leaderboards seem like a natural place to find that time. By providing a cut-off you are going to be giving them a number. And I know it seems foolish to let that decide what is good or not good, but when you are just starting out and lack confidence it does matter, especially if you are more of a lurker and maybe don't feel comfortable about asking a runner that can tell you time doesn't matter. If you do choose to do a cut-off time, please let the newer runners or people that are thinking of starting to run, have a say in this. Encourage them to use the videos not just as proof but as a way to show off and be proud of what they were able to do, even if the time is slower than expected.

Though I still don't think there needs to be a division between "a good enough run we need to verify it" and "just a run". We should all be treated equally.

I also appreciate the videos of lower times for a completely selfish reason. I'm simply not going to be doing the better, newer strats. I'm going to go for safer strats that I know won't make me quit in rage. Having videos of times closer to what we believe we are capable of will give us a place to see these outdated/safe strats and will help encourage us to move up to the next level.

I fully understand the reasons people are worried about requiring video proof, I think in a few months that those reasons won't be nearly as detrimental to the community in comparison to the positive benefits. Like I said, there will be a transitional period, but even changing to SR had that when you needed to resubmit runs, mods not being able to just add your time if they saw the stream, the mods had to do all that editing, yet it has all worked out for the best. You've already taken one step to legitimize your leaderboards, this just seems like the next logical one.

The KH community is extremely supportive of new runners. The only thing preventing people from running the game is themselves.

I lurked on this thread for a couple days as I've said most everything I've needed to say so far, so I'll keep this post brief on just a couple clarifying points:

1. The "arbitrary cut-off rule" was NEVER enforced on the google doc for as long as I used it. Many mods would add times instantly if they were watching the run live (and is clearly evidenced by BB's 2.5 run which stood as WR without a video for over a year I think). I'm including myself in the guilty party as one of the mods, but it was never suggested to me at all that there was some cut-off line.

2. Split VODs and VODs that drop parts are fine imo for initial verification unless you have some reason to suspect cheating. Once again, mods should be checking at bare minimum the beginning & ends of each video though, as well as some random spots throughout. If cheating is suspected later, we re-evaluate.

3. I think removing legacy runs with no VODs is completely unnecessary, but don't have any incredibly strong feelings against it if that were the way we decided to go for some reason.

4. @Salad, the difference between a cut-off line calling runs "good" vs. "bad" and one runner calling their time "bad" is that the cut-off line is decided by the ENTIRE community and thus reflects the opinions of us as a collective rather than those of one individual.

Thank you to all the new/prospective runners for giving your opinions, as you are the ones this discussion will most affect.

Timmi, can you retitle this thread and reword the OP to be just about video proof? Afterwards I'll make a subforum for "General Issues/Requests" and move this in there. That way people can make individual threads for individual requests in the future, too. The topics that spawned on this thread have already been resolved it seems, so I don't think we have to worry about popping those out into individual threads.

It's a bit strange money is always brought up, but then lines are moved with exceptions. Slower versions of games are their own boards instead of investing in the fastest setup (We even had 2.5 JP and EN combined for a while on this site). Video rule being more lax on some users, or just flat out not required for handhelds (other "official" boards not being so nice. We're trying to be more official, right?). People with internet data caps being out of luck. Promoting piracy over this issue. "ALL runs should require video! No exceptions, it's idiotic to even argue this. It's an investment like all hobbies." then in the same post "I pirate and emulate my games."

I like what someone mentioned earlier-- don't make things more complicated or mean more than it needs to be. I keep hearing the stance "being more official". But we have almost 200(?) times submitted in 1.5, three of the top 20 no video, and over half of the rest without video without any issue coming up. But now that's an issue? One of the arguments for requiring video is people's feelings because someone might beat their time and they can't say "pics or it didn't happen". However the sleight against those not agreeing is that "I can't imagine anyone feeling alienated they can't submit their times." It's literally the same argument.

I don't find anything idiotic from people having different perspectives-- especially when they've got legitimate criticisms for their stances. Most of from my perspective for the video-requiring is those who ARE better off going "lmao shit out of luck, man. Find another hobby". As someone mentioned as well, many use leaderboards NOT for the competitive nature, but as a central hub to post their times. Remember, speedrunning is a personal hobby. Some run to beat their PBs, some run many games.

I know my perspective is very unpopular and in the minority, but I can't imagine the thought process to say "EVERYTHING requires video if you can't invest the money then find a different hobby" and then list exceptions because of money concerns. Or saying "it's nothing but what-ifs or unprovable feelings" as Bizkit said, then proceed to do the very same thing for people being salty and angry that someone beat their time but didn't post a video (as many top runners- SpikeVegeta, Bl00dyBizkit, and iiSalad have all admitted they fall into whether intentional or outside forces causing it. LiquidWifi also having a few missing videos. All of these are very reputable and respected runners).

We won't suddenly be seen as this awful and unprofessional community because the 1.5 boards have over half without video. Having a time cutoff would make it so those with top times can still require video as proof, and those who fall under it can strive to meet that good time. If someone has a 4:15 in 1.5 and somehow get mad (see how this argument is actually identical?) someone without video got a 4:14, then they can strive to get a 3:30 (or wherever the cut-off was made) and not even worry about that arbitrary time not having video.

I'm not sure if I'm wording myself well or if I probably made a few enemies from this post. But I simply can't see any legitimate reason to require every run to have video. Especially with how many people in the community have called certain times bad in this very thread on both sides. So I can't imagine them caring at all a 4 hour 1.5 run being submitted with nothing accompanying it and them having a huge issue with it. Everyone wins.

When you want to be taken more officially, then not only promote piracy, but move the line drawn for a "no exception" line, you just look more unprofessional than before. From my perspective, having a well discussed cut-off time for requiring video makes the most sense and everyone wins. For those who feel proof is most important for good times would have that, and those who give no shit whatsoever would not have a time that it even matters if video is there or not.

This is my thoughts on the matter, and I apologize if I offended anyone. I'm not used to this kind thing.

I have read all of the thread. I was stating my stance on this subject all in one post, as many others have done (some even stating pre-face they didn't read the thread) and hope to be taken as seriously as the rest. I wasn't attacking anyone, and even pulled from people posts flat out. So your post is odd to me with how condescending in tone it is.

You do see the irony when you claim I don't know what I'm talking about when the law does state pirating a copy of game even should you own one is illegal, I hope.

EDIT: http://www.nintendo.com/corp/legal.jsp#download_rom

From Nintendo Officially, since you're mainly talking about emulators and piracy for DS and 3DS games.

To make my point on this, I'm pretty sure most people cannot afford to pay $245 to $280 USD for a 3DS capture card and around $135 to $170 USD for a DS capture card unless some people already have a DS in which that case, they can probably pay around $53 to $88 USD for just a Install Kit or around $75.15 to $110 USD to send a DS in for Capture Board Installation.

EDIT: It's about $135 to $170 USD to get a used silver DS with capture board preinstalled. It's probably safe to say that it will cost even more if some people wanted a DS or 3DS capture card if they live outside the US, like Canada.

Blue, I highly recommend you read legal precedent on this before just blindly citing Nintendo. Nintendo obviously doesn't want emulation to be legal - why would they? At the very least, it's a loss of business on their end. However, according to the case of Lewis Galoob Toys, Inc. v Nintendo of America, Inc., emulation is entirely legal in the US assuming you have a physical copy of the game. (Source: http://www.leagle.com/decision/19912063780FSupp1283_11881/LEWIS%20GALOOB%20TOYS,%20INC.%20v.%20NINTENDO%20OF%20AMERICA,%20INC. )

Thus, emulation clearly isn't illegal. I've played emulated versions of games that I own. I've speedrun on emulated versions of games that I own. It's technically illegal, but hard to enforce, when you don't already own a copy of the game. But again, that's very hard to enforce. And that's not our responsibility as a speedrunning community to enforce the law on this, especially when it's something we can't verify.

The way I see it, if the community accepts emulated runs, then it's completely okay. I own or have owned but since lost a copy of every game I've run. But that's just me. But if generic new runner "xX_KingdomHeartsLove_Xx" wants to pick up a category of a DS or GBA game and they don't own it, especially given the current rarity of CoM and the ridiculous price of DS/3DS capture cards, it's completely okay for them to run on emulators. Emulator runs are the reason I'm considering doing runs of CoM, RC, and Days at some point in the future. I definitely can't afford to stream DS games at the moment.

Edit: Blue. Read the whole thing. Commas interrupting a statement: "It's technically illegal when you don't already own the game." interrupted with "but hard to enforce." It's not piracy, nor illegal in any other circumstance. Heck, it's not even piracy unless you don't own the game in question.

In that case, it's more expensive to get what's needed for PS2 2FM JPN runs that to capture and run the DS games.

I was purely pointing out that I don't see any weight in the argument "It's a hobby, you're expected to invest." and then listing off exceptions when it benefits the poster, especially when it's emulation that's used for it. As I said, I pulled directly from people's posts (some even by name)-- hardly grounds for assumption I didn't read the thread.

We're focusing on the least important aspect of my argument. I had a similar reaction as you said you did for when people would state others to spend money for the hobby, but then go right around and say they pirate their games-- the opposite of investing. It was also playing in the argument of us trying to appear more "official" and legitimate. Where instead of trying to be like others (who do allow runs without video, ban emulators, and many handheld games requiring video like Puzzle League, Kirby, etc.), we be our own thing, as we're not like the other boards.

I think things as we did for the doc was fine. Time threasholds, top times needing video, etc. That's what my point was. As I was addresing the main arguments I saw as you did to me.

I do apologize for sparking negative feelings, Timmiluvs, it wasn't my intention. As an aside though, Nintendo did address the claim that games no longer in production are free to pirate. I don't agree with that one in specific despite heavily being against piracy, but I brought it up to your claim of me being ignorant.

EDIT: Abandon, when you say "It's technically illegal" following calling me out, it hurts your point :P Downloading illegally copied roms that are not from your owned copy is illegal. But even ignoring that, I don't even care if others use emulators, I was pointing out the flaw in the investment argument when using emulators. That's all. This is the least important part of my point I was making whether emulators are illegal or not. EDIT AGAIN: Actually, I wasn't even the one to bring up the legality of it. Come on, with this.

Abandon, your link isn't even about pirating games, it's about the legality of the Game Genie when altering and attached to the original work.

"Lewis Galoob Toys, Inc. ("Galoob") markets and sells toy products. Galoob has a license to market a video game accessory known as the Game Genie Video Game Enhancer ("Game Genie"), which attaches to a video game cartridge and allows the player to temporarily alter certain attributes of the video game. It is sold for personal consumer use only, not for video game arcades. The Game Genie does not create a separate copy of the original video game, does not make permanent changes to the original game work, and can only be used when attached to the original game."

I'll read more about it now, incase it's in the middle.

EDIT: No, I wasn't the one who brought up the legality. I said if you're going to claim you need to invest in the hobby, then using emulators to support your stance should not be allowed. You brought up the entire illegal or not, Timmiluvs.

That's exactly my point though, I don't think videos should be needed for every single submission. To keep bending what's an exception or what's not is assinine. For example you could say "requiring video for a 3DS is fine beause you could just point a webcam at it."

But again, the legality of emulators is the LEAST IMPORTANT ASPECT OF MY POST, and one I did not even bring up, as you just admitted that you were the one to escalate that point and input meaning that wasn't intended in any way.

EDIT: To put more perspective, I have two runs where I did a 3DS speedrun with a camera on my screen.

Final Edit: To put my final word on this and leave it to avoid derailing any further:

The point I was making: The people in this thread to say that people SHOULD NOT SPEEDRUN or find a different hobby if they aren't willing to invest in it, but then not invest in it themselves by using emulators, I feel is backhanded.

Alright I had intended to let this run its course but the train has seemed to have derailed near the end. My personal opinions are mixed on the subject as people who know me know that I've mostly been doing non-recorded offline runs in races and such with friends due to terrible and nearly nonexistent upload rates at my University. However this post isn't to voice my side of the topic. I'm no mod of the server or major name in the community but I want people to read this and actually get what I'm saying so here goes:

This is a discussion board, not an argument board. We're all here reading through lines and lines of text to come to a decision about our community as a whole. When that decision was made a few pages in, let it go. Give an opinion and let it be considered. This board shouldn't look like a shouting match over whose side is better or worse but that is what it started to become near the end.

TL;DR: Opinions are welcome, save the arguments for text between each other. It looks really silly seeing 20 posts from 2 people going back and forth.

I'm gonna keep this short and simple. In regards to requiring video proof for runs, i don't think allowing runs without video is a good idea. It's incredibly easy to record gameplay and if someone doesn't want to go through the trouble of recording it, then i don't think they're very interesting in speedrunning anyway

If it were a few years ago where recording gameplay wasn't as accessible, I would definitely be on the side of a cut off time. However, considering how easy it is, and as Hobz has brought up an ez cap is so cheap there really is no reason not to require video proof. I think what is most important is helping people get started like Hobz is doing. Also even if the person doesn't know before trying to submit a run, first runs are easily beaten anyways, so getting one run rejected when they can just buy really cheap equipment for their second run isn't asking much.

Ok so since this thread has gone cold for over 2 weeks and there is a clear majority in support of video proof for all, the current rule of requiring video proof for all games (EXCEPT DDD) will remain in tact. Unless there is strong opposition, all runs previously verified with no video proof will remain on the leaderboards as "legacy runs." This brings up the interesting question, however, of what to do with current WRs that have no video. Do we delete them? Continue to allow them? Make a note in the run's comment? I'll bring up a separate thread ( http://www.speedrun.com/kh/thread/mdog3/1#e3xb0 ) to decide these questions and link to it from here once I have. Please consider this thread closed and do not reply to it anymore.