Now that EMU runs are being shown on the leaderboard, I am just wondering if they offer any sort of unfair advantage (like lag reduction) ? Has it been tested and proven to be 100% accurate to runs on a real console for this game? I ask because I remember watching Zikana’s 52min run when I was getting into learning this speedrun and it will filled with mistakes, falls, and just not-so-good play overall. Compared to Koilro’s 52min WR (which is much cleaner) I just can’t see how Zikana’s run is barely slower than his time. I know the game has lots of RNG but if you watch both runs it seems hard to believe that Zikana’s run can be that close to Koilro’s run.
The rules say emulator runs must specify specific details about the emulator used, but none of the EMU runs on the board provide any such details.
The times for this game are already so tight/close that it will be hard to find motivation to compete against artificially advantaged times if they do provide an advantage. Maybe Emu should be in its own sub-category from consoles ?
I fully believe there are differences in the emulator loading times. I have been testing out RNG manipulation lately and part of it includes doing something similar to a TAS. What I've noticed is that the program I use doesn't always get everything exactly right. I believe this is due to the emulator loading the game fractions of a second faster or slower. Although I say all of this, I don't believe these small differences are an issue at this point. If the speedruns for this game get to a level where fractions of seconds are making the difference in the end, then the issue should be further addressed.
^This. When I went for the WR I sometimes compared my current PB to Zikanas WR side-by-side to look for optimizations and as far as I could discern the only noticable discrepancy was the loading times. Just like NorthRock has said, the loading times are sometimes faster and sometimes faster so in the end it basically evens itself out.
I think Zikana's WR was just smooth enough to capitalize on really good RNG and get an insane run.
Concerning the legality of emulators: this might only be temporary(!). First of all, I want to thank you for giving feedback and voicing your concerns. I actually wanted to make a little announcement thread before, or at least shortly after the changes had been made. Unfortunately, I didn't get around to it. I'm going to state my reasons for this decision and maybe copy/paste them into a new thread, detailing the new changes.
The rule about specifying info has been added in conjuncture with emulators being fully legalized. Previously we didn't ask for this info as emulator runs weren't seen as 'as valid' as runs on console, which is why these runs are grandfathered from this rule.
I had thought about the legal state of emulators for a long time now considering that we currently don't know of any clear advantages they have. The game is only marginally affected by lag on console and only in rare occasions. As stated earlier, direct comparisons only showed clear differences in load times. Additionally, seeing how about 40% of all full-game runs to date were run on emulator, I feel like it would be a lot more welcoming towards these runners who show interest in running the game, but can only play on emulator, to include them on our main board. This is also the reason as to why, at least right now, I want to avoid seperating emus and consoles into sub-categories.
I know this is a rather drastic change and I fully respect and understand your worries. Just remember, these changes aren't irreversible. For now, I would like to give this new rule set a little time; see how it works out and what people think of them.
Furthermore, I've thought about using a different timing method for emu runs, where we could replace the emulator load times with those of an actual console, which would eliminate at least that difference between the two versions. I'm going to do some testing with this and post my results in a new thread tomorrow.
Bottom line: The rules are in their testing phase. If they don't work out or if the majority of the community are against them, it's highly unlikely they'll stay. As of now, I don't see enough reasons to revert them just yet.
If anything, I thank you for your interest in this game and keep having fun!
UPDATE: I'm looking deeper into Zikana's run... UPDATE 2: Compared my run to all available emu runs including Zikana's and it's looking more like his run is the odd one out here.
So... one thing I can say for sure right now, is that the load times for emulator are a lot slower than on console. This goes for Project64 (v2.3.2.202) (tested on my PC) and for every emulator run currently on the board, except for Zikana's run. I can savely say that running on emulator is over 30 seconds slower than on console in terms of loading times, so I don't think we need to worry about that :)
Zikana's run is a whole different story though...
Thanks for all the info, wanted to reply sooner just kept forgetting. I’m not an expert on emulation, since I’ve never used it for anything, but can load times vary for this based on PC performance? Like if someome has a better PC, is it possible that two emulator runs can have like a 5-10 second difference just based on their pc performance? Is it possible Zikana is overclocking to achieve his time?
Last question, if Zikana’s run is unfairly loading/running faster (for whatever reason) should it be hidden or removed from the leaderboard? It will still exist on his youtube upload, but honestly having a run that inexplicably runs faster (and is emulation) is not very inviting to new runners, especially if it sits #2 on the leaderboards.
