Except no wrong warp and force quit because those would be redundant with any% glitchless
I see there is a thread from a year ago debating on if it was worth adding the glitchless any%. But now it is a popular category with 48 runs. (Maybe it is too popular for the Misc. section now.)
And I see there are 2 other threads here asking for a SL1 glitchless category.
And I have found 2 glitchless all boss speedruns on youtube. So I'm sure some people would like a leaderboard for that also.
I suggest skipping all future debates on glitchless categories by just giving every category a glitchless subcategory now. So that would mean any%, all bosses, SL1, and all achievements would all have glitched and glitchless subcategories. Any future categories added would also get glitched and glitchless subcategories.
Applying the same glitchless ruleset to every category where it can be done, is consistent and not arbitrary. Maybe some will become more popular categories after they get a leaderboard like any% glitchless. And any gitchless subcategories that don't become popular won't be cluttering up the main category list, so it shouldn't hurt to have them there.
Thanks for the polite response.
I know this is a late reply, but I wanted to come back to this to write one more post arguing for my point of view, and then I'll stop bothering you. I hope that is OK.
I agree that it shouldn't be too easy to add a category. It would get too messy if one person asking for any random, arbitrary category could get it added. But I also think it is a shame if it is too hard to add a category, and ones that could be popular with a leaderboard don't get added because they need the popularity they can only get with a leaderboard in order to get a leaderboard.
My first post mentioned why it seems like SL1 glitchless and all bosses glitchless already have some interest. I think they both have a decent chance of getting more popular if they had a leaderboard, just like any% glitchless got more popular after it got a leaderboard. And I think these are logical categories to have, so they shouldn't be treated as if someone was asking for something as arbitrary as Praise-the-Sun% or Firebombs-Only%.
One could say these runs have some interest, but not enough interest, there needs to be more than 2 people asking for these leaderboards to add them. Maybe someone decided it needs at least 5 people asking. But I just don't think the bar for what counts as 'enough' interest before getting a leaderboard should be set that high. Why not set the bar at 2 people asking if it is a logical non-arbitrary category to have, like I would argue these glitchless categories are?
Another point is I think a leaderboard with few runners, but a lot of people interested in watching those runs, also has value being on a website. One of the dark souls all bosses glitchless speedruns on youtube has 31k views from a runner with only 312 youtube subscribers. It's the most popular video on that youtube channel, most of the other videos on that channel have sub-100 views, so I think that vid has 31k views because people are interested in the category, not because it is a popular youtuber. So I think these categories would likely also have a lot of interest from viewers, and that should count for something when deciding if they should get a leaderboard.
I don't expect all achievements glitchless to get a lot of runners, it might get 0 runs, but I asked for it anyways because I thought it would be better to ask for a consistent rule of just adding a glitchless subcategory to everything. But if that was the wrong move I concede that this has zero signs of interest and is much less deserving of a leaderboard than the other two I asked for, so I would understand not giving this a leaderboard. (Though if it did get a run I think it could be impressive.)
I'll conclude by summarizing my suggestion for what I think is a neat, logical, non-arbitrary way to organize the leader-boards, while adding what I think is reasonably likely to be decently popular categories that people will enjoy running/watching.
Suggestion:
5 Main Categories instead of the current 7: Any%, All Bosses, All Achievements, SL1, SL1 All Bosses.
Any% sub-categories would be: Any%, No Wrong Warp, Force Quit, Glitchless.
SL1 sub-categories would be: Any%, No Wrong Warp, Glitchless.
All Bosses, All Achievements, SL1 All Bosses sub-categories would be: Glitched, Glitchless
(After my last post I noticed there is also a SL1 all bosses subcategory. Maybe it is because there are only 2 runs, but I dislike how that's a subcategory of SL1 when the any% all bosses isn't a subcategory of any%. So I made SL1 all bosses a main category, and it also gets a glitchless subcategory, but if people want to keep it a subcategory of SL1 then that is fine. If so, then this way of organizing them would only have 4 main categories, wouldn't even need that "misc." button anymore.)
I get where you're coming from and I very much agree with the statement that the selection of available categories does influence people's decision on what to run. Some people might not care about leaderboards at all, others might only be interested in doing runs they can actually submit. Personally I think there should be some amount of interest in a category before it gets added (specifically more than 1 person in my opinion), but I also agree with your point that there might be people interested in watching it even if there are barely any runners. I think the solution would be to find a middle ground, so to not restrict leaderboards to only the most popular categories but on the other hand also make sure that there will be more than just 1 run. There are lots of potential categories that could be added, but we should also try to keep the page as organized as possible. I don't know if you're on the speedsouls discord, but we've actually been talking about this topic fairly recently there.
I wasn't on the discord before. I looked today and I think I've found that recent conversation you mentioned. I don't really have much more to add to the discord conversation, but thanks for telling me about it.
I like what you said about finding a middle ground for this website.
I agree dark souls has a lot of potential categories. Some other games like Ocarina of time have a separate "category extension" page with long list of a lot of arbitrary or meme runs. I don't know if something like that would be fun/useful for the Dark Souls speedrunning community. But it might be a way to allow more categories while keeping the messiness away from the organized main page.
Category extensions are generally disliked by most of the DS1 players interested in the leaderboards. Furthermore, in no way or shape does a viewer interest mean anything for the creation of new categories. We appreciate your input and I personally understand where you're coming from, although disagree.
The logic of categories first, runs second is somewhat turned around and really isn't warranted in 99% of cases.
Thanks for another polite response. I knew my posts were unlikely to change anything but I wanted to give it a try anyways. I hope in the future other people can show enough interest to get cool/fun/impressive new categories.
I am happy there is an all bosses glitchless category now! But seeing that has made me think of another (hopefully not too annoying) suggestion. What if you used the 'news' feature to announce the new category? Then more people will know that it is there now.
We are trying not to be overly reliant on this website and prefer hosting the most of the community's errands on our own side. Thus, must of the happening occurs at either the SpeedSouls Discord or the SpeedSouls wiki page.
