Hello. Me again. :D

I've noticed we haven't got a definitive set of rules for the game. As a result, it seems like the timing conventions vary from one runner to another, which seems hardly fair.

For instance, I time my runs from the moment I have control to the moment my last shot hits the last shadow dude, and this seems to be the modus operandi of many runners. However, some people wait until the win celebration (like beadle111's last run), while others could wait until the beginning of the picture scene.

I believe there is merit in clarifying those.

Here's what I came up with, I just want to have people's opinion on this.

Rules to review:

• Timer starts once you get control of your characters, and ends on the last hit required to win the last match. Yay or nay?
• Shadow team skip: Losing a teammate in the USSR match skips the shadow match and takes you to the credits right after the USSR match. Haven't tested this yet to see if that would actually save time, but I'd argue this part could be optimized by sacrificing a low-HP low-defense character like Mike, and then cleaning house with Sam, resulting in avoiding a 1 to 2 minute match altogether. Do you guys think we should allow that or not?

No, but I could try producing one either tonight or on the weekend, and see how it goes.

It is no glitch, that is for certain. It has no effect on the ending whatsoever, tho. Shadow match or not, you still get the ending credits.

I believe it would come down to a case of any% vs 100%.

I am about to get home, so I'll experiment with that a bit, and compare Russia & Shadow vs Russia & intentional death to see if the time gain is indeed significant enough.

Well, here it is:

A difference of 36.85 seconds between a good Russia/Shadow combo and an unoptimized Shadow skip Russia match. The gap could've easily been 10 seconds wider if Boris would've thrown an accelerator at Mike on his jump shot.

And that gap will widen a LOT on difficult.

So this begs the question: what do we do? We have a few options here:

1- We forbid this. However, this pretty much goes against what any other game does, and that is letting the player use any and all means at his disposal to reach the ending. 2- We allow this. However, there is a risk that the community would find this unfair and cheap, especially considering the fact that ALL runs have the shadow match in them. 3- We create separate categories. However, do we really want to compete with SMB in terms of categories?

If any of you guys can think of other options, it would be great. Among those three, I'd lean towards option 2. I can't vote for 3 with a clear conscience for obvious reasons, and I'd hate to forbid using something that's clearly a part of the game, and an intended mechanic.

Looking forward to read your opinions.

I hear ya. And I'm torn as I could consider myself both a traditionalist and a progressive, in the sense that while I wouldn't want to disrespect the work that has been done, speedrunning has always been about finding new ways to save time with what the game offers you de facto. That's what got me wondering what should be done about this in the first place.

But yeah, it all comes down to whether we make the current categories 100%, any%, or if we make both. Also, we have to keep in mind that if we go for both, it will be applicable to all three difficulty levels as well.

I'm fine with the extra categories. I just don't see a problem with people submitting their 100% run into the any% categories. There are several games that allow a single run to be submitted to multiple categories if it fits the prerequisite. For instance, Tetris on NES would allow you to submit your "100 Lines - Start at Level 0" run to the "100 Lines" category as well as it fits the 100 lines criteria.

So the way I see it, any% should end with whichever team that allows the ending to occur (as that's what an any% run is in essence: finish the game by any legal means necessary), while 100% must be completed by defeating the shadow team. I see no need to disallow 100% runs into any%, as several NES games already allow that. I mean, ultimately, a 100% run is slower, so if players don't forego the shadow match, joke's on them.

In that sense, I propose that the current categories get rebranded as 100%, and that we create new categories for any%.

Hey, if it's a matter of extra workload, I'll take on it. :D

So if there are no objections, I shall go ahead and make the changes.

For people that aren't as awesome as we are, the Shadow Team fight is a secret bonus ending fight. I have often wondered about the validity of intentionally sacking a player here and it looks like you've now proven that it will be faster to do so.

In my opinion everyone who did the shadow fight did a 100% run, and the new strategy for Any% would be to skip the bonus fight. Therefore, I think splitting the categories is the right thing to do.

I'm not opposed to more categories. I feel like Shadow is definitely a requirement for a 100% run or maybe even "No Shadow Skip" category.