Patch/leaderboard changes
7 years ago
British Columbia, Canada

Hi everyone,

So I think there is an issue with the way runs are kept/removed from the leaderboards. Obviously I have some skin in the game because my WR was removed for using the table tech glitch. But, I am told that my use of that glitch was pointed out by the current WR holder. Obviously, when it comes to a leaderboard like this, objectivity is key.

Off the bat, I have no problem with my run being disqualified for using a glitch that was removed. At the time, it was a perfectly legitimate way to play the game but due to it being removed and considered a "major change" my run was invalidated. Glitches are an enormous part of speedrunning, so not utilizing glitches is strange in that regard. I feel like it is hard to classify "major change". Where do you draw the line? Seems arbitrary. I feel like either runs should be tagged as "old version" or ALL old version runs should be eliminated. For instance, was there a mimic? Well "Mimics no longer teleport when re-entering their room, and can now follow you out of reward rooms" is a big deal. You can save time pulling them out of the rooms towards where you need to go. Even something as small as "Homing bullets caught by the Red Wizard now behave correctly" could impact the time.

I think it is an all or none situation. I realize this impacts the speedrunning community because having your run removed doesn't exactly feel good, but the game is in active development, so we are at a bit of an impasse, and I don't think subjectively deciding what constitutes a major glitch is the right way to go about it.

Sweden

Understandable, and i agree. But we'll need more output. Let's see what everyone else thinks, only people that run the game will be counted as legitimate votes for this idea though. The whole concept of mainly removing world records that utilized pre-patch glitches is simply because that would make it harder to get the FASTEST time simply because you're playing on a up-to-date version, which doesn't sound right to me. I do agree on the mimic part though. Removing all past runs, isn't necessary unless the time IS REALLY GOOD and utilizes major glitches not on the current version of the game. It is however very hard for me to keep track of all runs on good times that utilize pre-patch glitches though. I will talk to the head mod and see if we could get some more moderators to help things out, but removing ALL past runs is not the right way to go, as far as im concerned.

Edited by the author 7 years ago
British Columbia, Canada

Going back and judging which run has a pre-patch glitch is a hell of a lot of work. Which is why an all or nothing solution required. Just worrying about WR is 100% arbitrary. Why does only WR count. What if I have 3rd place and the 2nd place used the previous patch? You need hard-lined rules on leaderboards IMO.

Sweden

Hmm, yeah i see what you're saying. Perhaps setting a timelimit would help us on this part. Removing ALL runs under a specific time IF they're using pre-patch glitches. For an example, if a run is sub 20 for 1 characters they need to be played on the current version. Though i never said that ONLY WR counts :p

But this would also need more observation as to how much time these major changes really tend to lose you.

Edited by the author 7 years ago
British Columbia, Canada

Again, this is an arbitrary distinction. Totally up to interpretation, and someone could get screwed by it.

"The whole concept of mainly removing world records that utilized pre-patch glitches is simply because that would make it harder to get the FASTEST time simply because you're playing on a up-to-date version, which doesn't sound right to me." Is what I meant by ONLY WR counts. If it is the only thing you are looking at for whether it should be removed or not.

Sweden

I'm swedish and can have trouble properly explaining myself, what i meant to say is that's why I MAINLY CHECKED WORLD RECORDS. You're being surprisingly rude right now, but i by no means intended it to be seen as ONLY WR RUNS BEING SUBJECT TO CHANGE. Like the rules say, all runs utilizing major glitches will be removed. I just haven't looked up every run, that's all really.

Sweden

I got a message about elads run (being the past WR) and removed the run according to the rules. Im sorry if i offended your pride with my unproper explanation.

British Columbia, Canada

I'm Canadian, so I'm impressed that you feel like I'm being rude. That's not my usual state of being. I don't mean any harm by what I'm saying. I just feel strongly on the issue. If I hurt your feelings in any ways I'm sorry.

I know what the rules said. I have a problem with them is what I'm saying, when you are interpreting the word "major" in "all runs utilizing major glitches will be removed"

Sweden

I treat all runs with equal respect, but i would prioritize looking at a WR than looking at a 10nth place run, if you think that's bad moderating then you must think 90% of speedrun.org are bad moderators.

Edited by the author 7 years ago
New Jersey, USA
Buffet_Time
He/Him, They/Them
7 years ago

If you don't care about checking the boards why are you getting so defensive? That's my question also you guys are coming off very hostile for no reason. No one here is just trying to single out anyone else (at least to my knowledge.).

Sweden

You're just being straight poisonous right now, of course it's hard for me to answer properly. But you're not giving me solutions, just critizing what you believe is my own flaws. Also, i didn't make the rules, they're good rules in my opinion which is why im defending. Yes they need to be more clear, so i guess we'll work on that.

Edited by the author 7 years ago
British Columbia, Canada

I'm not certain why I'm seeming hostile...I'm just voicing an opinion. And whether you made the rules or not, if you are running the boards, and I feel like the rules should be changed, then I think it is worth bringing it up to you. Sorry that you both feel bad about my opinion, but I think it is a legitimate concern. While I don't quite share the hostility as Wilarseny, I 100% agree with him in terms of rule changes.

England

For the record, I agree that the rules need to be changed and clarified, at the least.

Wilarseny, about an 'archive leaderboard', do you know of a function or method which could do this easily without clogging anything up, such as completely starting a new page etc.?

If so, could you please explain?

Sweden

I do a 100% agree that we should phrase the rules more properly, but please PLEASE. Tell me how i should do it in that case, i can't personally think of a better way to phrase it so suggestions is welcome.

Edited by the author 7 years ago
British Columbia, Canada

As I have been suggesting. Either remove everything that isn't current patch, or remove nothing. If possible, tag "old version" runs so that people know. OR if there is a way to archive previous patches. That is what to do. Then you don't need to include any rules. You can remove the part about "major glitches" and can just put, leaderboards will be archived when new patches come out.

The current way it is written is not good. It is subjective and open to interpretation.

Sweden

It's not possible to archive patches as far as im concerned. I atleast can't restore old runs now that things have already been done as far as i know. Archiving every single patch is in my own opinion not a good choice either way, but if others agree and it's possible we'll do it.

Edited by the author 7 years ago
Georgia, USA

Unless a major glitch is discovered again or an expansion comes out that completely changes things I think the old versions staying is fine. The old ones were purged just for being unbeatable due to some powerful glitches.

If anything the times now should be "easier" to beat later on with the way Dodge Roll is talking about implementing some new items and guns from suggestions on the subreddit.

England

Just to clarify: are any Table Tech glitch runs to be reinstated or remain gone for being too powerful?

British Columbia, Canada

I feel like I am talking in circles. I don't know what to say. Firstly, my table tech run that has been removed would've been in 3rd place on the 4 character boards, it was hardly a glitch that made my run out of reach (like the quickswapping bullet). AGAIN, I know that it should be removed, but because it isn't the current version of the game. My run isn't less legit because I used a glitch that is now not in the game. My run is not legit because it was in a different version of the game, that played differently. That has been my point all along.

Please just try and understand where I am coming from here. You define "major glitches" after the fact. You even admit that you didn't know the table tech thing was a glitch when you made the rules. That's my point. You are deciding what is and what isn't a major glitch. Whether you use the word glitch or feature the different versions are DIFFERENT. This is a problem. It now becomes a matter of "consulting the community" on whether certain changes in the game should be banned or not.

I mean, I wasn't consulted, and I thought I was part of the community.

You shouldn't have a ban by committee style leaderboard. Either it is in the game, or it isn't. This isn't a long term solution, and it ends up being more work for the moderator group anyways.

Also, wall of text anger isn't really helping the conversation, and it is unbecoming of a moderator. I don't believe that type of vitriol should be spread by a moderator, if you think someone is being distasteful, then moderate.

I also just want to point out to @Skuttie, that it is important to not just focus on the top of the leaderboard. In some very deep leaderboards some people might be trying to just get into the top 10 or something, and if the person sitting in 10th had an advantage because they got that time on an old version, I'm sure any runner would be sad about that.

British Columbia, Canada

I also think it is worth looking at those who have dealt with this in the past:

https://www.reddit.com/r/speedrun/comments/43u4al/how_to_deal_with_an_updated_game/