Should keyboard inputs be allowed for EMU users?
4 years ago
Massachusetts, USA

I'd like to start a discussion on weather or not keyboard users should be allowed for Kung Fu speedruns.

Currently a lot of the strats in the game require moonkicks, which is a double frame perfect input that requires an UP+R input one frame after pressing left. This is quite hard to do on a controller/dpad and we run the risk of accidentally hitting down to crouch for a frame or two before performing the moonkick, which will throw off the game's RNG. Keyboard users, however, can perform moonkicks more consistently and cleanly without worry of accidentally hitting down, and can therefore get them at a much higher success rate. Some people feel this gives keyboard users an unfair advantage when playing the game over console users playing on original hardware.

A proposition is up to ban all keyboard users from getting a time accepted under 3:40.00 and anyone using emulator submitting a time under 3:40.00 will need a camera showing their inputs on an actual USB controller. I'd like to open up this discussion to the community to see what you have to say on the topic.

Edited by the author 4 years ago
United States

So in case anyone doesn't know this is being brought up because I have improved very quickly in this game on keyboard and am now a world record contender. Although this cannot alone prove that keyboard gives an advantage, it is a good indicator. There are plenty of hard tricks in the run, and keyboard only seems to help with one, moonkicks. However, I shouldn't have to say this is a very important trick. It is impossible to say how much keyboard helps with doing moonkicks, but it seems to make them very consistent, I would say I probably have a 80-90% success rate after a week of practice. I have never tried them on console so I don't know what to compare it to though. For this reason I understand if keyboard is banned. Obviously I would want my run to count, but I'm ok with it not being accepted if it is determined keyboard gives a significant advantage. Although I have only played for about a week, it is a shame to discard all the progress I've made, including all the tricks I've spent hours on that aren't moonkicks. Regardless of the decision, I will probably either continue on keyboard and aim for a 3:32 as a personal goal, but I may also wait until I can play on console with a controller. (EDIT: Also I think it is kind of silly to require a camera to make sure you are using a controller. I would never run on emulator if I had to do that. I think you can trust people, especially known runners, that they are using a controller.)

Edited by the author 4 years ago
Slackanater likes this
Pennsylvania, USA

I think that this is definitely an issue to address. The simple solution is to not allow emulators at all or perhaps to separate categories. I would rather not separate console from emu as the real problem is with the advantage the keyboard give and not the emulator. To keep it a fun competition for all I agree that no keyboard should be allowed.

With that said the question is how to prove a emu run is not using a keyboard and the best way does sound like a camera displaying the use of a controller. Should this be required of all emulator runs to keep it consistent for all. It would limit some who do not have the ability to do so but lets be honest most people should have little trouble doing setting up a camera to display there controller.

Ouijawii's option could be perfect because moonkicks are not truly needed until you are going for sub 3:40 or even down to sub 3:38.

Another option maybe that we say that for top runs, maybe top 10, top 5 or even just podium spot are required to run on console only. I believe that if you are dedicated enough to grind for a WR in a game then you will want to do it on the original hardware. I know that I do. please everyone voice your opinions

lucandor158 likes this
United States

I personally don't think it is that easy to just set up a camera to show your controller. I would have to buy a camera, and even if I had one I really would not want to use one. It would limit how I can hold my controller comfortably or move around as I wish. Also I really don't think playing on original hardware is that important for getting a top spot. Plenty of games have world records on emulator, and it is not always easy to get an NES, especially if you are from a different country that uses PAL for example. I also get how I'm not really part of this community yet so I understand it if what I think isn't the most important. It just really sucks to have what I did count for nothing.

Pennsylvania, USA

I agree that we do have a great community and speed runner are some of the best people. But we all know it only takes one person to ruin something for everyone. If there is an unfair advantage on the keyboard which I do believe there is. Than it is important that we make sure that no one is using this advantage. The only way to do this is to have video proof or to not allow emulators.

As for the advantage of a keyboard I agree that there is no way to say how much of an advantage you get. After playing this game the last 8 months with over 8000 attempts my consistency with the moonkick is not much more than 60%. In a run where mere frame have separated runner I say no amount of an advantage is acceptable.

I'm still very impressed with what Lucandor has been able to do with the run in such a short time. I hope that you consider setting up with a controller and continuing to run Kung Fu.

Sweden

Tough topic. When NME and I battled back in the day neither of us used moonkicks and we both got 3:36. Even 3:35 is achieveable without. Just a sidenote since it's a point of interest "when" they are needed and as lucandor stated moonkicks is the only clear advantage with keyboard.

However. Keyboard definetely gives an unfair advantage, which they always do in situations where you need to press an -opposite- direction in a 1 frame window after the other. Doing that on a dpad is a lot harder, even more so when it's diagonal.

I'm not opposed to emulators since that is how most people find the hobby and it expands it in the first place but I do think different games warrants different rulesets where there are unfair advantages based on controller methods.

I think something needs to implemented in this case. If it's a separation of emulator/console on the boards or proof that a valid controller is being used I don't have a definitive answer for.

Slackanater likes this
Russia

This is pretty complicated question. I'm running NES games on keyboard only and I can definitely say that in some cases keyboard have advantage over gamepad, mostly because D-pad separated into 4 separate arrow keys. In most games this advantage do not affect game time too much (difference in frames in most cases). Kung Fu is one of exceptions because this earlier game is pretty simple, short and tight inputs dependant. If there would be some time threshold, some players will be kicked from the current leaderboard instantly and futute players that will plan to grind this game heavily will need at least webcam. So my opinion is to make separate categories for emulator players, like in Donkey Kong.

Pennsylvania, USA

I do believe that Lucandor's accomplishment is great and should not go un-noted and maybe that is reason enough to separate the categories. This gives no unfair advantage to emu players as they all can use the keyboard. Then also allows us who choose to play on the original hardware a fare competition. Tho I do not agree with Lucandor that "original hardware is not that important to get the top spot." Because I tend to believe that's what it is all about. Beating the retro games as fast as they can be beaten on the console itself. That does not mean that I do not value what he thinks no matter how new to the community he is. He does have the fastest time ever recorded for beating Kung Fu on emulator.

EndySWE likes this
New York, USA

Interesting and difficult stuff to consider. As an emulator runner, I guess my 1st question is there any other NES speedruns that ban emulator and/or keyboards users? I think there are a few obscure games that ban emulator because of RNG manips. I believe most games will just make the rules stricter like live streams, cam controller, input display, show resets, show no movie, etc. I rather have the rules worked out more as the game becomes more popular/competitive than to go for a simple solution like no use of emulator or separate leaderboards.

As far as using a keyboard, my opinion is that it can have an advantage for moonkicks in this game. And whether the advantage is slight, it is still unfair for original hardware users since the game is getting so precise now. This also would apply to custom controllers which could easily set up a way to unfairly improve moonkick consistency.

My thoughts for competitive emulator users is no use of keyboard and to provide a controller cam to show that the controller isn’t rigged in some unfair way. The emu/controller cam rules should only apply for top times. I’m not sure what the competitive cut would be since even my leaderboard time doesn’t even have moonkicks in it either.

Slackanater likes this
New York, USA

To clarify I run on emulator using an original NES controller with USB adapter. While I don't use an original console I never wanted to run any games on keyboard. Though I'm now curious to test out the moonkicks on the keyboard.

Pennsylvania, USA

Another question would be if allowing keyboard. would there be a specific key mapping required? Would you also allow mapping multiple buttons to a single key? You could easily have an up key a right key then a separate up and right key. This would make moonkicks very easy. I think that this is where emulation gets tricky and hard to regulate. Its is also why many of us choose to play on original console as it is a level playing field and is easier to regulate.

One downside to splitting into separate categories is it leads to confusion. Not so much by our community but by everyone else. When someone sees a run on YouTube they may get confused when there are multiple runs claiming to be WR. By default they will take the lowest time a see that as the "True" WR knowing nothing about the different categories. Yes runs can be labeled TAS and we can also label the Emulator. Must people will have no idea whats this means and default to the lowest time. That is the tough part for me as I have worked very hard to be able to say that I have beaten the game Kung Fu for the NES faster than anyone else ever has.

When you break in down far enough we are trying to decide who has beaten Kung fu the fastest. Kung Fu was made for the NES console. Yes we have emulators and they do exactly that emulate a console. In other words they try to be the exact same. If we emulate the game shouldn't we emulate the controller as well?

Massachusetts, USA

I'd never tried moonkicks on keyboard before, so I thought I'd give it a go now. It's night and day compared to a dpad. Its much, much easier.

But here's my issue with emulator and this game right now. I can bind W to jump. E to jump and right, Q to jump and left so I can preform moonkicks 100% of the time, whenever I want. Technically you can do the same on an emu controller and bind up+right to the R button on a SNES gamepad and up+left to L, allowing for 100% moonkick accuracy.

Because of this, the only way I know of that we can verify a legit run is with a camera on the controller as you play.

If we decided to go the route of separating EMU and console into different categories, it would still be unfair to those on emulator using a gamepad. We would essentially be forcing them into using a keyboard if they want a top time. And as slack very smartly said, "If we emulate the game shouldn't we emulate the controller as well?" I think yes. A controller should be needed to run this game.

So maybe we do need to just straight up ban keyboard from being used at all. And any emulator players with a time under 3:40 should have an extra verification step of needing a cam on the controller while playing the game. I know some people want the rules to fall under all runs, but sometimes I think it makes sense to only have the strictest rules for the top times, or we end up not being inclusive enough for people who start running the game.

Slackanater likes this
Pennsylvania, USA

quick thought on using sub 3:40 as the determination on whether a run needs a cam to verify use of controller. maybe it should be the use of the moonkick as that is where the advantage is. So any emulator run that uses the moonkick would have to have video confirmation that a controller was used.

Massachusetts, USA

That would tackle the issue more directly I suppose.

New York, USA

So I tested out moonkicks on keyboard and it looks like Ouijawii beat me with the technical explanation to the keyboard advantages. But what immediately struck me was that when doing the moonkick with keyboard I can have the impossible (left+right) inputs held at the same time. I never have to let go of (left) when doing the (up+right). Having (left+right) held at the same time on a NES d-pad controller is impossible unless the controller is broken, that is why it is commonly banned on all NES games.

This is from the general NES rules:

Turbo/L+R Turbo is not allowed as it provides an unfair advantage. There may be a few exceptions regarding JRPGs, but there is an overarching rule that turbo is not allowed. Left+Right or Up+Down is not allowed.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1apP69VDIzUx-iVO_sj5YjTxBAE2ukHPa6kl33AOW9hA/edit

New York, USA

Also, I feel bad and I hate to be the guy trying to discredit someone and like Slack said lucandor158 should be congratulated for what was accomplished is such a short time. And to be fair the rules were not clarified and I’ve seen this before where people's hard work was negated because of rule changes/clarity after the fact. At the same time all runs on the leaderboard shouldn’t have inputs that’s impossible to perform on console/original hardware.

United States

Just going to throw this out there: We don't have to put emulators in another category. That's what filters are for. We could just filter emulators off by default. That's another option.

I'm all for just requiring controller, and video proof of controller for emulator users.

This is why you should submit all your PBs, by the way. Not just an out of the blue WR. That always invites extra scrutiny, and nobody should feel badly about that.

United States

So to reply to the thing about how you can hold L+R at the same time, on most emulators that is turned off by default, as it was for nestopia (or I turned it off at some point), so I could not keep holding left, although I suppose there is no way to prove that. As to the question of me submitting an out of the blue WR, if you don't think it's legit I have about 15 other sub 3:40s I could show. The reason I didn't submit is because generally when I'm playing a game and am PBing every day, I just wait until I have a decent run. I did not expect to be at a high level this quickly. I can accept the run not being allowed because of keyboard but I certainly do not want to be labeled as a cheater.

United States

Also I submitted my 3:34 when I got it but then unsubmitted when I thought it wouldn't be allowed but then just decided to resubmit the 3:33 to let you guys decide where it should go if anywhere.

Massachusetts, USA

I don't think anyone thinks you cheated Luc. I think what Pres is saying is if you had submitted all of your PB's this discussion would have happened sooner. I'm not positive that is true though given how fast you got the game down. What you've done is super impressive and no one can take that from you. We're just trying to figure out what is fair given the constructs of the original game and how it is played.

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