Hey all, crazycider reached out to me recently about some category additions. From their message:
"The purpose of this email is to hope that you can add two speedway challenges under the game: Surreal difficulty cannot use the game bug quick clearance， and A quick pass to collect all of the game's required collections. 20 ghosts, 20 ghosts’ story, and 7 character models. Because I think, the game's current speedway challenges project is much less difficult because it can be opened by a gatekeeper, requiring little or no complexity. So, I hope to add items that can reflect the individual abilities of players, that is, the difficulty does not use game bugs, especially the normal flow of water gate and the speedway challenges for the collection，Because, all the collectibles required for the game are 20 ghosts, 20 ghosts’ story and 7 character models. So, I think it would be better to have a full collection of speedway challenges programs."
Just wanted to collect some input from the community on rules, titles for the categories, and whether they'd be best categorized in Misc categories.
Trying to make the concise ruleset for these. Would "any% glitchless"/"100% glitchless" be accurate? I'd like to add everything that is specifically disallowed in the rules. Which bugs should be included in the rules as forbidden?
So in regards to a new category for completing 3rd building without doing any skips, a person I've been speaking to has found a glitch and was excited to test its uses within the context of a run. In regards to the general spirit of everyone's goals is it more to promote the completion of the third building? Or are people simply interested in a pure glitchless run. While the skip wouldn't be acceptable would early alarm be accepted? I'm not at all opposed to a glitchless category being made at all and it even sounds a little fun but I'm just curious about the spirit of the request. There are a lot more glitches that can be played with than just the skip, is the goal to sidestep all glitches? Or is it more just to get players to actually play every level before proceeding.
I'm all for a category without the 3rd building skip. It sounds fun and I think the competition and interest in the game would increase. Without the 3rd building skip we wouldn't need to play on hard mode so I don't know what that would do to the route. Its interesting for sure.
So I just thought of something. We don't have a category that gets the games best ending where you have to go into the Labyrinth portion of the game and save So Young. It might possibly be worth making the glitchless category double dip with So Young for completions sake
We have Ji-min% so a So-Young% should be added imo, Its different enough from the any% run to warrant itself its own category.
I know I'm getting pretty late to this but... I'd love a glitchless category. I'd be up for it since I feel it would be a nice challenge for someone who doesn't really want to be skipping sections.
I want additional category for 'Hell' Mode, Hell mode is more difficult to make record I think.
So I think we should add some categories, Hell mode would honestly be super short since dying counts as an ending. We have brought it up before but I think a category without the Building 3 skip could be interesting or even doing a So-Young % since that adds the ending labyrinth. Let me know what y'all think!
A So-yeong category seems to make sense since it would complete the trio of major routes the game has (Hee-min / Ji-min / So-yeong).
A Hee-min 'no new building skip' category sounds good as well. That will allow free selection of difficulty modes.
Just a thought, but I think a Ji-min 'no new building skip' would great too since her normal route is so different.
Another thing.... What if we separated Any% Hee-min NG and Any% Hee-min NG+ by variable rather than by category? Like, just have one category called 'Any% Hee-min', and underneath, an option to select the 'NG' or the 'NG+' leaderboard.
My thinking is that might leave more room for new categories. What do you think?
I like the idea of adding new categories. So-young Any% sounds great since we get to see the actual labyrinth and also Hee-min Any% NG/NG+ 'no new building skip' will be awesome too. I personally don't like Ji-min Any% 'no new building skip' but that's just my opinion, the crouching part of the run is the opposite of what a speedrun should be, it definitelly cuts the pace though i like the part the comes next and we get to play it on Very Easy i guess. A suggestion i can add is that if a So-young any% category is created it'll be great if it's a NG+ so you don't have to delete the files (at least on PS4) every time you complete a so-young han ending. Rules says "NG+ refers to a save file that has encountered Ji-Min (unlocked by clearing Normal or Above)". Correct me if i'm wrong but i think Ji-min is unlocked by completing a So-young han ending that's why i think So-young Any% should be a NG+ category. I mean in NG we're completing full runs of Ji-hyeon endings (above normal) but we're not unlocking Ji-min. I like the idea in general, will totally submit runs. PS: If So-young Any% is created that makes me think that maybe what we know as hee-min Any% NG/NG+ should be named Ji-hyeon Any% NG/NG+ instead. Because it could have been that it was called 'name' any% because we're playing that character but we're not playing as so-young so maybe we should use the name of the character ending we're getting. Just an idea.
(I'm going to start referring to the new building skip as NBS because it's shorter...)
I think Ji-min Any% without NBS would be interesting if nothing else. Although I do agree that the crouching part would suck. With a planned strategy it would probably just end up being a long wait, and I suppose the 100% ghosts category already has many of those so it might not be so bad. Anyway, the So-young category should take priority regardless.
I was speaking to Cloudmark about what the So-young category rules should be. It was proposed that making the category a 'White Chrysanthemum' category would rule out NBS, but I did some tests and can confirm you are still able to take advantage of NBS and get the White Chrysanthemum ending - you just do it right after you get the blue key card.
So yes I think there's no question it should be a category which specifically prohibits NBS. I can't think of any conventional ending or route in the game where NBS is not useful, haha. Even if we made the category like 'Normal mode only', there's a chance someone could discover how to do the skip on normal mode and then pandora's box is opened once again.
I've been giving some thought about what to call it, and something like 'So-young Any% No NBS' seems fine, but my concern is that we could just end up finding another huge skip that makes the 'No NBS' part redundant.
So, I thought a better name for it would be 'So-young Any% NMS', where 'NMS' means 'no major skips'... What do y'all think about that? The reason I would vote for calling it 'no major skips' is because I feel like the whole reason we want to remove NBS is so that we get to play the rest of the game, right? If it turns out there's another huge skip found in the future, it would most likely be useful in every category, including this one, and then this one is no longer the 'full game' run, and we start missing bits again. Hence 'no major skips'.
Also 'no major skips' is more flexible, I think. If there was a skip that we did want to keep for some reason, we can just decide it's not a major skip.
If I'm misreading people's intentions with this category please let me know -- this is just the impression I get.
Also, pardon my inconsistent spelling of So-young vs So-yeong... I get mixed up with the way the original game spells it.
In regard to renaming Hee-min Any% to Ji-hyeon Any%, that does make sense... But there's a couple reasons I would disagree with doing that.
The first thing is that I think it would be too destructive. With all the runs which have been uploaded to YouTube and Twitch, and all the times it gets referred to elsewhere on the internet, there would be an inconsistency. I'm not sure if changing it would be worth that potential confusion.
The second thing is if someone submitted a run which got one of Seong-ah's endings for whatever reason (maybe they accidentally choose the wrong option at the end), I think we would agree it should still get verified on the leaderboard. That would be a very exceptional case, but definitely plausible, and I feel like 'Ji-hyeon Any%' doesn't imply inclusivity of that.
I can see why changing the category name will be dangerous, you're right. About the So-young any% 'NMS' i think is a good idea due to so-young route being the largest run, but since we're doing a NMS run it'll be fun if we go for White Crysanthemum not to mention that is the true ending of the game. Yes it is true, you can skip NB after getting the blue key card and still get White Crysanthemum but since Ivy & Hyacinth are the shortest runs out of all So-young endings, those will fit in a So-young any% category. While White Crysanthemum requieres various steps and the skip is also very late in game. I agree with So-young- any% 'NMS' and i support the White Crysanthemum ending regardless you can skip it or not. Though i insist it should be a NG+ run, since completing a so-young han ending unlocks Ji-min and in order to run it again you need to delete your files (at least on PS4). What you all think? Like i mentioned previously rules says that you unlock Ji-min by completing normal or above but i think you unlock her by completing a so-young han ending. So either name it So-young any% NG+ 'NMS' or So-young any% 'NMS' and specify in rules that it should be a NG+ run. Just a thought, let me know what you all think.
I agree that the So-young category should be NG+. I think that was probably a given anyway.
I'll go ahead and do this then:
- New category: "So-young Any% NMS", with a note in the rules saying it must be NG+.
- Split leaderboards for PC runs and PS4 runs on all categories. (see https://www.speedrun.com/whiteday2017/thread/z6d9m )
If anyone disagrees with it just say and we can still change stuff after the fact.
If there's any more interest in a Ji-min Any% NMS we could also do that but this is probably fine for now? Same goes for any expansions to So-young Any%, like White Chrysanthemum or something.
EDIT: It's done.
