Ori and the Blind Forest Definitive Edition Forum  /  Possible "glitchless" category discussion
  VulajinVulajin
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Hey everyone,

A few conversations in people's streams and in Discord have led me to believe that there's sufficient interest in a "glitchless" category to warrant finally introducing one. The intent of this category would be to limit the use of unintended mechanics to those which are simply extensions of available movement options in game. Here's my proposal for things which would be banned under this category definition:

- No use of Rekindle or learning abilities to skip cutscenes.
- No storage of menus (i.e. save anywhere/teleport anywhere).
- No use of save drops.
- No duplication of items.
- No clips or out of bounds.

And here's a proposed list of things which would ¤not¤ be banned under this category definition:

- Disabling the UI.
- Bash gliding and dash gliding.
- Double bashing.
- Moving enemies into advantageous positions using normal movement or bash.
- Using enemy projectiles or something other than the intended means to break a barrier.
- Manipulating a level up to achieve a timely health/energy refill or damage an enemy.

Here are some specific tricks that would ¤NOT¤ be banned. This is not an exhaustive list, i.e. there might be stuff I forgot to include that would still be allowed:

- Frog walk
- Iceless
- Ginso corruption skip
- "Stompless" method of breaking the rocks above Kuro's head
- All forms of Sorrow Bash except the ones that involve save anywhere
- Both variants of frog juggle

So here are the two big questions:

1) Do you believe this category should exist/would you run this category?
2) Do you agree with the proposed category rules? If not, what modifications would you suggest?

(edit: emphasized that the list of tricks is stuff I would ¤NOT¤ ban)

ds273ds273, ICED37ICED37 and TheDregorathTheDregorath like this. 
  BrynholdBrynhold
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Me and my friend used to play an "Intended%" as we called it in vanilla, was a lot of fun, why? Great for races, because there were no tricks that were so important that if you failed them, the race was over. And it was a lot of fun to play the game very similar to the first playthrough you did. It was also kinda "chill" because it wasent so damn hard 🙂. So I would actually prefer something like that, but if thats impossible..
1) Edit: Not really.
2) But if it were done then I would like to see Double bashing gone in order to make it more welcoming for a bigger playerbase to be competetive, and as far as i see it, seems like a big glitch.
I have no idéa why Iceless would not be allowed if strictly thinking about "glitchless", but its not a trick I wanna do, so in that sense, gone 😛.
Id like to see fronkywalk gone simply for variance in the route, and its also a glitch right?

Something we discussed about this however is the fact that it would probobly be a nightmare for those confirming the video would it not? Do they have to watch the entire thing for someone cheating, it does it work by random watchers making reports if someone happend to do a banned trick? Obviously accidental tricks if nothing is gain from them should not be punished.

/edit: I should probobly specify what our "intended%" was: Basicly everything you listed was forbidden exept bashgliding, disable ui, breaking barriers with enemy projectiles i belive. You also had to do misty woods and forlorn ruins before sorrows pass.

 
  VulajinVulajin
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There is no glitching involved in frog walk - it uses intended gameplay mechanics (enemy aggression, the Magnet ability, and the energy refill from leveling up) in a novel way to sequence break the game. The route will be substantially different regardless of frog walk (you will have to do all of Horu, for example), so personally I don't see "let's change things up" as a great reason to ban it. Iceless should also not be banned.

Double bashing, I understand if there will be some disagreement about this. My personal view is that double bashing is just a highly optimized use of a movement mechanic, consistent with the rules of its use. It's something that even a casual player can do accidentally, though they probably won't realize how to use it to their benefit. Much like with iceless, I also don't believe we should ban a trick just because it is intimidating to new players. There are tons of alternative strats available for every spot where a double bash is used in top level runs - what we need to do is properly educate people that these alternatives exist.

Leaderboard moderators who verify runs are expected to actually watch a run to verify that it adheres to the rules, yes. This applies regardless of the category.

 
  ICED37ICED37

I love the idea of glitchless and I know I haven't run in a while but this and a one life category has to be the ones I want to see when I can run again.
I agree with Brynhold with saying that double bash is too big a glitch to have in glitchless. UI disabling is in the game right? So why make it banned, unless you want Xbox to have a fair advantage in the game (which might be preferable). Bash and dash gliding seems weird to me if it should be banned (haven't done much with it personally), and frog walk/ level up manipulation seems fine as the game mechanic allows it (if you want a pure story-line type run that would be different) anything else seems valid. This is just my opinion I would love to hear a lot more from people who do these glitches more than I have.

 
  jokajoka

It seems like a good idea. I was worried that it would overlap with All Skills too much (essentially do what All Skills tries to do), but it looks like this will trade Misty and BRB for all of Horu (still no Forlorn escape 🙁 ).

Hmm. I have to think about it some more.

 
  jokajoka

After thinking about it some more (and typing a lot of thoughts in Discord), it turns out my main concern is this:

If we have a Glitchless category, then why still ban OOB in All Skills?
There would be more room for a Glitchless category if All Skills was just.. all skills, instead of a semi-glitchless category.

I'm not suggesting we change All Skills (as people has pointed out - we've had that discussion already), I like it the way it is now. But anyway, that's my main issue.

 
  jokajoka

New post, after some more discussions on Discord!

What would make more sense to me is an "All World Events" category. Because then we would have Any%, All Skills, All World Events, All Cells and 100% which are all different from eachother and very easy to define.

However! "All World Events" only really makes sense if it's also glitchless (as people has figured out before). So it would be "All World Events, no glitches" or at least "... no major glitches" if you consider double-bashing a minor glitch. I don't think there's any point in adding in "do it in the inteded order!" or "no sequence breaks".

So my suggestion is this:
- Any%
- All Skills, no OOB (and no clips)
- All World Events, no glitches (as defined above, by Vulajin)
- All Cells
- 100%

 
  OninOnin

Double-bashing is a glitch, in that the fact that the second bash doesn't apply the correct movement to the target; bash is always supposed to move you in opposite directions, not suddenly in the same direction.

I never have any interest in glitchless categories of any kind, so I'm putting a vote for "don't bother". It doesn't solve sequence breaking and it only needlessly lengthens the run with uninteresting content. All of this because of a glitch that is still not RTA viable.

 
  IkewolfIkewolf
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Here are my thoughts about this : (sorry for my terrible english)

- Making such an arbitrery category goes totally against the discussion we had a few days ago about Onin's clip. We came to the conculsion that we shouldn't have exceptions and make a category ambigious with which is /isn't a clip/OOB, in that way we said we should just follow clear rules. But now comes this category which basicly is : "I want to play this game in that way so let's make somewhat rules that would fit the way I want to play the game". I'm sorry but that's excactly what we were talking against, and why we didn't allow the clip in All Skills. This goes with emotions/desires and what we want to play more than going with logic. This category would make every new tech we find maybe a glitch maybe not, everyone has their opinions on what a glitch is/isn't.

- It would be unfair for poeple that wanted glitchless but in another way. Indeed as I said at the end of point 1 poeple were talking about glitchless, but with everyone wanting his own version of glitchless. until now we always said no to glitchless cause of all those points, why should we accept a version of glitchless over another? I personally consider that Iceless should be banned for what I would consider my version of glitchless.

- Making a 5th category when there is probably the one life category comming as well is starting to be a lot for such a little game (even tho this argument isnt really valid)

- I would much rather have a category like "no cells + something", that is not arbitrary at all and would do what poeple want (Iceless and stuff)

- And I will probably never run this category not because its not fun, but because we'll speculate again and again on new techs that should/shouldn't be allowed, and that's not fun (for me at least).

TL;DR : If we make glitchless a thing, allow Onin's clip in all skills

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  QuentillionaireQuentillionaire
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I agree with Joka's point, and Ike's TL;DR. I'm all for a glitchless category, as long as it is sufficiently different from other runs. Just adding a glitchless category would essentially be a "Most Skills" category as it is right now, with no key dupe, and add in Horu. Those two things aren't enough in my mind to make it a category worth running. If we change All skills to allow OOB, and have glitchless as the "starter" run that people can do if the glitches are intimidating (like how many of us started), then that differentiates the runs enough to have them both worth running separately.

I think we all agree that we want to keep at least one category that can't make use of the Sunstone -> Warmth skip, that's essentially why All Skills No OOB was created. Adding glitchless and changing ASNOOB (rip acronym) will keep the spirit of ASNOOB in glitchless, but unshackle ASNOOB from the arbitrary rules added to it. If we have All Cells (OOB is fine), why should we have All Skills No OOB?

Edit: Also, Glitchless is definitely an arbitrary category, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't add it. A lot of games have a glitchless run, and the way they make it less arbitrary is by clearly defining what is and isn't a glitch. So, as long as we define (and update as new tech is found) what is allowed then there shouldn't be any dispute about whether any particular run is allowed or not. Also, by removing No OOB from All Skills, glitchless would be the only arbitrary run.

 
  BrynholdBrynhold
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Category: All cutscenes. Its allowed to press "skip cutscene" 🙂

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  VulajinVulajin

Thanks for all the thoughts so far. I'm not going to be able to put much thought into this for the next week as I run RPGLB, but lots of people have given really good feedback on this. I'll respond with more of my thoughts when I get back. 🙂

 
  HenniesonHennieson

As someone who doesn't speedrun himself but enjoys following the Ori speedrun scene I would suggest a 'no sequence break' category. Since it is nothing like the categories there are now and it is fun for non-expert players to make comparrisons with their own playthrough.
However, I don't know if this is very boring for you to do (some of you seem to think so), or whether there is any ambiguity about what a 'no sequence break' run is.

 
  MuramothMuramoth
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I would LOVE a glitchless category. I actually thought about speedrunning a few games until now. My interest in all of them stopped when I would need to break a game. Even if it is not too much in Ori (compared to some other speed games) it started to bother me when I reached a point where it was more about practicing breaking the game instead of actually practicing playing the game.

If there would be a glitchless category you could definitively count me in!

EDIT: Just read Ikewolfs points and can see the problems with a glitchless category, but I would still be happy if we could maybe find a consensus. (Maybe even more of an intended category, because that might be less arbitrary (at least a little))

 
  VulajinVulajin

Okay, very slow follow-up, but thanks for all the thoughts everyone. In the end I decided that it's not currently worth pursuing an official glitchless category. However, that's not going to stop me from running such a category myself and just tracking my PBs, because I think this is the only way I'm still going to enjoy running this game.

Anyone else is welcome to invent their own arbitrary category, or you can follow the rules I'll be using for "glitchless", which are as follows:

- Save glitches are banned. (i.e. saving to skip a cutscene/event trigger)
- Save anywhere is banned.
- Save drops are banned. (i.e. using a save point or save anywhere in midair to drop Ori)
- Teleport anywhere is banned.
- Keystone duplication is banned.
- Double bashing is banned.
- Going out of bounds is banned.
- Clipping through any solid boundary is banned.
- Using Bash to pass through the small gap in the rocks in Sorrow Pass is banned. (just because it's ambiguous as to whether or not it could be considered a clip)
- Bash gliding and Dash gliding are ALLOWED.
- Disabling the UI is ALLOWED.
- Using the level up explosion to intentionally deal damage to enemies or objects is ALLOWED.
- Moving enemies around using Bash or normal movement is ALLOWED.
- Breaking walls and doors using alternative methods (e.g. enemy projectiles or Stomp) is ALLOWED.
- If a glitch or glitch-like trick isn't included in the above list, it is presumed to be banned.

MuramothMuramoth likes this. 
  OninOnin

While I don't at all care about glitchless categories, I condone the above ruleset as a fair and not entirely arbitrary set of limitations. '-'b

 
  BrynholdBrynhold
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I am also not intrested to run the current categories of Ori DE, so ill be looking into this.
Your set of rules sound good, what about using explsion to unlock energy walls early (fronky walk)?

 
  MuramothMuramoth

I also like your set of rules. I will definitelly look into that.

 
  VulajinVulajin

Yes, Brynhold, fronkey walk is allowed.

 
  ds273ds273

I presume door warps are banned? Exiting Horu through its entrance on the first possible frame after loading a file lets you skip all of Horu.