Sforzand0

First and foremost, I see there's not much interest in this category. I honestly have no idea if there are going to be any replies to this, but I think this is the only way I know to try and drum up some interest in discussion.

The "Best Ending" category is not clear in its presentation. 100 Chaos and 29 Missions is not how you get "Best Ending." In addition, some extra characters are obtained in the process of this run, but they are not stated in the rules that they are required, and yet, they...are? They're not required for the "World" ending, so would this be a separate, (nearly) 100% category?

Also, what's the status if this were ran on an SNES Classic? I can run it on mine, and it uses SNES architecture (not Retroarch or any other emulator), but there's one major "bug" if you will: The use of any tarot that removes the party off screen cuts off the enemy half of the screen; that half just turns black. That's the only problem running it that I've noticed, and the gameplay is not otherwise impacted. Is this satisfactory to submit runs via SNES Classic?

Also, I've noticed that not even the times are updated appropriately. Has the 2:01:xx by Dragondarch been submitted here? Is there a different website in which this game's data is updated?

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  Krayzar

The rules for for Best Ending are definitely not correct. Historically speaking, what you've seen in @Dragondarch 's and Brootus' runs is the predefined rules for the category, not what's listed.

Dragondarch brought this up in another thread here that has gone unanswered, and stated:

Quote

The rules that have been in effect since Brootus' run was done are:
Compete all 29 Maps.
Obtain the World Ending.
Recruit all special characters except Galf (since he conflicts with the World Ending).

Best ending includes getting all of the optional character dialogues at the end of the game, which does make sense for a 100% like category.

As for the SNES classic, I'd assume it's not acceptable, but we'd have to see what people think. It's not a game that comes standard on it, and I can confirm the problem you're seeing. Canoe (Nintendo's on board emulator) is not a perfect copy of the Virtual Console emulation in a lot of situations. Other types of emulation seems legal though, and I can confirm that Bizhawk, SNES 9x, and BSNES run this one with relatively low system requirements and are all accurate enough for the SNES version.

As for Dragondarch's latest runs? My guess is with the rules here on SR.com apparently in the wind, there's not much incentive for him to post his. They could easily be beaten by someone who isn't following the SDA defined rules, so why bother.

I've been working on some item drop manipulations for this game myself and that's my current feelings as well.

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  Sforzand0

Yes, but there are characters that do not have endgame dialogue (Deneb. Ashe, Lyon) that are still obtained in this "best ending" run. I've gone through a lot of the old SDA forums (circa 2010-2013, prime discussion), and I will agree with the general consensus of what was decided then, but I just wanted to see if there was any more clarity that could be brought to light (regarding the listed rules and categories). I'm not bringing anything new to the table, so I'll not argue whether or not the rules should or should not be in place, and I will, in principle, agree with them.

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  Krayzar

That is a good point. Some characters don't have end dialogue, but they are pretty rare.

My guess is it's because Ashe and Lyon are benefiticial and easy to get, and Deneb actually makes the run interesting in terms of alignment management.

There's certainly room for other categories. I know at least a few folks have routed a Devil run, and certainly a few of the other endings are achievements in themselves to do fast. Just don't think there's much interest or significant differences to justify adding much more than what's up.

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  Eunos

Categories could be added for Devil or World. But another option could be to add a variable to the Any% category for the ending card. That way, runners would already have the freedom to route any ending card they wanted without needing a category for some of the endings that are less likely to be run.
If the variable's values do not obsolete each other, then every different ending card run by the same user would still display by default.

Then get the rules complete for the Best Ending category.

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  Krayzar

@GreenMixTape, @Ms_Haunter, and @Overfiendvip ...

Can the rules be updated to reflect the actual rules of the Best Ending Category as stated by @Dragondarch ? I think there's a significant consensus between the few threads here, as well as historically.

 
  Krayzar

I'll try again.

@GreenMixTape, @Ms_Haunter, and @Overfiendvip ...

Can the rules be updated to reflect the actual rules of the Best Ending Category as stated by @Dragondarch ? I think there's a significant consensus between the few threads here, as well as historically.

 
  NewSchoolBoxer

Hello, I created an account to contribute. The historic problem with this game is that essentially every mechanic and ending requirement has been shrouded in darkness. There is a Japanese website called carbuncle that spells out the requirements. @Krayzar World ONLY needs:

- 3 Mystic Treasures, 12 Zodiac Stones, Tristan, Rauny
- Reputation/Chaos Frame + Opinion Leader's ALI >= 110, since 15 points are guaranteed by the first line

100% best ending (World) requirements can be debated. Complete all stages, of course. Would be nice to have all boss-hero and Gawain dialogue but can understand leaving out. What about Ashe, Deneb and Lyon?

Ashe only appears in Sun/Moon endings while Deneb and Lyon never affect the ending. Brootus' 2:10:24 and Dragonarch's 2:01:56 Youtube runs (2:18:08 Leaderboard run no longer exists) recruit Ashe and Deneb but skip Lyon, despite him only taking a few additional seconds. Costs 20k goth during stage and only 5k goth after. I think a 100% run has to recruit all three for max entertainment OR skip all three, if aiming for fastest time to trigger all World ending dialogue.

Also, I erased all recruitable heroes and sold the Mystic Treasures and Zodiac Stones on my PS1 file to degrade World into Sun. Confirmed Lans takes Ashe's place in ending if not in army.

Each tarot could have its Any% category but only Devil and Death have interesting gameplay and endings that aren't imperfect Worlds. I'd like to see a Fireseal item, Glass Pumpkin, Saga, Durandal, Sonic Blade, say, obtain all unique items run. Requires manipulating an item drop for Euros. Would also like a "max evil" run that trades the Zodiac Stones for 99 Dream Crowns on Musplem.

@Sforzand0 As for playing on an SNES Classic, I only see that category for games that come bundled. Obviously requires running a hack on the device then installing the ROM. Seems fine as regular SNES EMU entry.

Worth noting the Sega Saturn Japanese only version. Has 5 additional stages, including one that is a one-shot campaign like Dragons Haven with a new ending – Justice. Rest of stages available in a single playthrough by recruiting Deneb, Slust, Fenril, obtaining the 12 Zodiac Stones and 600k goth.

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  Krayzar

Hmm, I missed that in his latest video. Went back and checked, and sure enough, Lyon does not appear to be recruited by Brootus or @Dragondarch. Watch Brootus skip Lyon at 24:00. I honestly thought Lyon was recruited all this time, but it looks like all the early runs skip him on closer inspection. The routing just makes it look like it.

Well one thing you could argue is that Lyon isn't really a special character. Aside from the initial dialogue, he never plays any story importance again, and he isn't a requirement for any additional dialogue or items. Ashe it seems can have dialogue, so his recruitment makes sense. And like I said, Deneb actually makes the run interesting and she does have additional dialogue and triggers getting items, so it makes sense that she would be a requirement.

I don't know, the reasoning seems pretty clear cut to me in terms of recruitment at least. What do folks think? Is there an argument against not recruiting Lyon?

I remember hearing that the Saturn version had more content, but I'm surprised at just how much after reading about it. Pretty interesting! Thanks for pointing that out!

 
  NewSchoolBoxer

@Krayzar Thanks for responding! I went back and watched all the runs when a Clearing Slums of Zenobia b Getting Key of Destiny c Getting Garnet:

-Dragondarch recruits Lyon around 1h 33m after getting the Garnet
-Brootus recruits Lyon around 58 min on Key of Destiny trip
-alraedris recruits Lyon around 1 hour on Key of Destiny trip
-GreenMixTape does not recruit Lyon

Actually, GreenMixeTape run has extremely annoying screen shaking. Had over 100k goth when 7 League Booting to Lyon's city and still didn't recruit. Would have been faster to 'boot' to Debonair's castle as it's closer to the Key. No need to adjust time because recruiting Lyon would have added no delay and the 5k could be paid without impacting the route.

Easy then to require that Deneb, Ashe and Lyon be recruited on a 100% World run. No existing run is invalidated and follows precedent. Of course, Deneb is the only skill test and adds much entertainment. Ashe has boss dialogue with Debonair and ending dialogue on Sun/Moon. Hard to justify excluding him, even if skipping Lyon is allowed. I also think 100 Reputation / Chaos Frame ("100 PT" in rules) should not be required but will probably always be earned anyway.

Rules
Edit: Let's go with Dragondarch's posted rules, with Lyon counting. Also a 2007 SDA post where he argues for recruiting Lyon and Deneb.

Timing
I would prefer time stop be when "Congratulations" is displayed versus inflicting final blow. Minor point but it makes some difference in Dragons Haven because Albeleo has 3 post-fight text boxes to tap through.

Finally, something to be said that Dragondarch's 2h 18h 8s run listed on the Leaderboard was removed, probably by his own design, and his 100% 1st Place of 2h 1m 56s isn't listed.

 
  Krayzar

I gotta just watch these at normal speed, it's way too hard to catch things. Yeah, I can confirm you're correct on all of those @NewSchoolBoxer. Thanks for listing out the times!

Personally, I like the idea that all characters are recruited (except Galf obviously). Makes it pretty interesting. Though an argument could definitely be made that Lyon doesn't count, since it seems to change so little either way, he really should be included.

The 100% Rep thing seems a little arbitrary, I agree. Especially considering how RNG heavy this game is, I'd think it would be unfair to require it. A single mistake or bad battle RNG could potentially invalidate a run, and I really don't think absolute perfection is the intent here.

I personally like the last hit rule as it kind of flows with the general concept of first meaningful action or input to last meaningful action or input that so many of the original SDA runs are timed by, but I guess it doesn't mater much either way.

At this point, at least for Dragon's Haven, it probably doesn't make sense to change it. The moderation team doesn't seem to have much interest in re-timing things or updating the rules anyways. >shrug<

 
  NewSchoolBoxer

Was my mistake for skipping through the videos and missing the important details. Is nice to have start and end timing be consistent across all categories. I'd say it makes sense to change Dragons Haven start timing. Only 7 approved runs. I can retime them myself. Youtube only slows to 1/4 the play speed but is enough if I can't get a hold of any runners for the video files.

Dragondarch is active on Twitch so I'm fortunate there. He posted about not wanting to submit his faster 100% Youtube time because it wasn't sub-2 hours. Perhaps I can have him reconsider.

I understand the lack of fairness when the runner, including your Dragons Havens submission, wasn't trying to optimize the name entry originally. I think the best option is to keep timing after name entry as a Misc category and make a New Game timing category as a main one. Still compare new runs with Misc and add them in. Slight benefit for Japanese-version players since their "Fireseal" is 8 characters (ファイアクレスト) and requires scrolling past Hiragana.

No one person owns a community and if the active size of 2-4 wants consistent timing rules and better 100% rules that follow precedent, I think it's hard to argue otherwise.

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