New Fireseal run is improperly timed.
7 years ago
United States

The timing for this game starts when New Game is selected on the title screen, and ends on final boss death. The new Fireseal run doesn't start timing until they select their gender, which is ~15 seconds after selecting New Game.

Also note that the title screen isn't even shown in the video, so it'd be impossible to properly time unless he has the full video somewhere.

Edit: Just read the rules listed for this category. Not sure why this category uses a different start point. I don't see any reason to have this one category timed differently than the others.

Edited by the author 7 years ago
Krayzar and NewSchoolBoxer like this
Brazil

I don't have the full video. I'm ''ok'' if the time will be removed. ;)

Bye

Edited by the author 7 years ago

2 years later but I'm new here. Right, rules posted time from after entering the name to inflicting final hit. To be precise, "final hit" has and should continue to be when boss starts to disintegrate. I share Dragondarch's issue with timing. Should start on New Game button press.

Additionally, Albeleo after defeat has 3 text boxes to press through and a dexterous/lucky player could be a few frames faster than another. I'd like all categories to have consistent timing. Start on New Game button press and end on "Congratulations" being displayed to account for the Albeleo text. Not a big deal if argument to keep final hit remains. More important to track time for entering "FIRESEAL" as it is a bigger dexterity test.

Edited by the author 4 years ago
Washington, USA

The reason the timing starts at a different time, is because entering in the character name FIRESEAL should not be considered part of the run. In the rules it states timing starts on selecting name FIRESEAL

Thanks for a moderator response. Who made these rules? Why can't they be improved, depending on one's perspective? Using the rules as defense of the rules is circular logic.

I think the dexterity test of entering FIRESEAL should be counted as part of the time. Then all Ogre Battle runs would start at the same point of selecting New Game. I've argued this in another thread. I don't know how to define community consensus when it's 2-4 people though.

If we want to push the rules as they are then GreenMixTape's Best Ending run should be removed for skipping Lyon. I don't think that's fair given the minimal time and 5000 goth needed. I'd rather penalize the run 1 minute and leave it be.

United States

I personally don't agree.

Inputting FIRESEAL or pressing through dialog boxes isn't so much a dexterity check as it is a simply tedious requirement that arbitrarily invalidates current runs. Nothing changes in the run by doing it speedier than others. There's no RNG on that screen, and nothing to be gained or lost by better or unique menuing in that screen that actually affects gameplay or character creation, since it has to be exactly the same every time.

Even if we go by SDA rules and not current precedent, it would not be counted. See Timing here: https://kb.speeddemosarchive.com/Rules

"If the game starts by going through menus that have an impact on the gameplay (adjusting stats or equipment) or an overworld map (or level selection screen etc), then those are defined as ”gain of control”."

Since there is no impact to the gameplay in this category - inputting FIRESEAL gets you the same results every time - it would be excluded.

Similarly Since the last few dialog boxes do not affect gameplay in any way, it would not be counted by SDA rules:

"For RPGs, we use the frame the hit points of the final hit on the final boss shows up (unless there are gameplay elements coming after that point)."

That said, in the interest of ease of verification, video of runs probably do need to start from power on as the title screen frames do affect RNG, and time as soon as the name is confirmed, as everything after that does affect RNG again.

Edited by the author 3 years ago
United States

Actually, you're wrong about the name entry not affecting RNG. When you select your gender, the RNG is seeded, based on the frame you hit the button. Sitting on the name entry screen still advances the frame counter, which in turn can change which seed you get when you select your gender after.

So yes, how long you take to enter your name DOES affect your starting RNG.

(As an aside, I'm of the opinion that all categories that start from the title screen should have a consistent "time start" point. I don't care if it's the title screen, the name entry, gender entry, or when the world map loads for the first time, but there's literally zero reason to have every category except one start on the title screen, and that one starts after name entry.)

Krayzar likes this
United States

I stand corrected then! I'll have to take a review of my TAS's as I'd thought that was something I'd accounted for.

I don't fundamentally disagree that it's nice to have everything starting in the same place, but squaring that up with current runs and that it might be a barrier to entry for an otherwise fun but under utilized misc category is something to account for. (I personally don't care about my position on that leader board, I'd run it more regardless)

Now that I'm thinking about it more, the fact that the first meaningful user input action is the gender pick makes it a fairly interesting place to start timing. While I doubt the choice of letter for the name matters much in terms of manipulations, it would open things up there.

Edited by the author 3 years ago
United States

The letter you enter for your opinion leader's name actually shifts the RNG seed forward or backward in a manner I don't understand lol.

The manipulations I use require ! as the name so the frames line up for the seed I want. Other letters would put it in a different spot, and I'd have to redo the entire thing.

Krayzar likes this
United States

This is actually very interesting to hear! I should have specified I didn't think It affected much beyond the starting seed offset. Kinda figured I just didn't understand the logic behind what offsets it was choosing, but it's nice to have confirmation that others can't find a pattern to it yet. Maybe there's more to that.

I've been running under the assumption that another "seed like" value based on a combination of things (possibly including the name now) that offsets both the position of RNG seed and can change based on a number of current gameplay factors. Considering the era it's likely to choose from a number of arrays or lists based on and key off of the main RNG seed to decide choices from those lists. I just hope it's 1 single extra variable and not 2+ separate ones.

Edited by the author 3 years ago

For sure the video recording should start at console power on (edit: or game reset), even if Dragondarch and me can't change the timing to start at New Game. Reason is, showing after power on makes it trivially easy to use a Game Genie or other device to alter boss and ally stats and resistances. Would require video editing to cheat a fake console power on. May as well start recording a second or two before power on / reset to have a margin of error.

Game Genie in action:

I like the Japanese RPG real-time standard of power on to THE END since that would include the extra 3 text boxes in Dragon's Haven. Funny seeing JRTA timing used in Super Mario RPG main category but none of the others.

Edited by the author 3 years ago
Krayzar likes this
Washington, USA

I do heavily agree in general for any speedrun anybody does for any game, the recording should start with powering a console on. This in itself helps distinguish what is being played on. I do that for all of my runs and would encourage that for all speedrunners in general. However thats not something that is easy to enforce, and doesn't need to be done, more of a gesture of authenticity for runs. Clearly this game has RNG manip, whether or not to add a variable if RNG manip is used is up for debate. Thinking about it now I might add a variable for this to select when submitting runs, as it is optional to do for runs and does make a HUGE difference in how the game is played. As far as the timing for FIRESEAL starting after entering the FIRESEAL letters made sense to me because how fast you enter those characters should not be part of the run. I get the debate on whether this should be universal, as RNG manip is a thing and if you start at new game for full game and choose to do an RNG manip, you will "lose time" setting up that rng manip initially. This might warrant a group vote as I don't want to make a cut and dry decision individually when the community should be involved in making that decision.

Washington, USA

Either way, the recording submitted for runs should indefinitely include setting up of the RNG manip