Nuclear Throne Forum  /  Running solo categories with NTT?!
  SenenSenen
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Ok, so NTT is a hack that doesn't use the current NT build (or at least modify some stuff, even in single player mode). So... why is this allowed for solo categories?

The last two runs that Tommydestroyer has submitted in All Areas have been made with this mode and have been validated as WRs at their time. Why? Some of the fix made in this hack make the run easier (portal always spawning on you makes for less reset in Deserts, weapons behaviour has been improved significantly, etc) or at least different (statues no longer absorb rads before they're open, etc). It's not the same game and it's not an official release. I see no reason to accept a run made with this in the leaderboard. Except for the coop leaderboard, ofc.

Also, to be clear, S6kana has just beaten Tommydestroyer's current wr, so it's the perfect time to open the debate, as there is no bias. S6kana's new wr (that should be submitted/accepted soon enough) has been done with the current version of the game.

 
  SenenSenen

Btw, in case you didn't know, the examples I've given are facts. The whole list of fixes is available in NTT's "readme".

Quote

Bugfixes
While fixing coop-related bugs is an obvious choice given the scope of the mod, I didn't stick to just that, and also fixed a handful of other issues with the game. Bugged "crown vaults"? Fixed. Game hanging in certain areas? Fixed. Occasional crashes during an intro to an important boss fight? Also fixed. The full list is long (200+ items) and available in the "readme" document.

vPixlvPixl likes this. 
  vPixlvPixl
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i didn't notice that. i do a lot of runs accepted on my phone so i often rarely notice the descriptions of the runs.

i'll change some of the rules to have it done on the vanilla client. thank you for making a post on this.

 
  S6kanaS6kana
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There are many miscellaneous bug fix in NTT. In original NT, warp in desert and jungle as 80% chance to spawn beside the 1st destroy barrel, in NTT, it will always spawn beside the last enemy body or the last item destroy. And, layout in NTT are more friendly (for coop play), arena layout will be more commun than corridor. The crown vault doesnt load when not activated (in NT it will). And, there are less enemy in NTT when playing alone than in NT, because its fixed for get twice enemy in coop. There are many more change than the original version, but these example show how it's different

 
  JToThe2JToThe2

Half of what you just said is total bullshit. The portal appearing where it should and the crown vault bug are true, those were fixed. Level generation and enemy density weren't touched at all in NTT.

 
  LemintoopLemintoop

Looks like you don't even played or touched NTT at all. This mod allows to play in co-op and fixes most of the stuff that caused problems in original game. Level generation code wasn't touched at all and portals wasn't changed, it was always spawned at last destroyed object/enemy. I think you didn't even read changelogs for NTT that are included with it. Basically NTT is same as original NT, but with minor fixes that mostly covers post-loop bugs and adds in game recording and replay function, that can help a lot.

 
  SenenSenen

Ok, now that's insulting. My examples are very obviously noticeable when playing NTT and they're actually backupped by NTT's changelog.

Quote

v9837:
+ Captions are now shown for the nearest weapon, not for all nearby weapons.
This is also warranted to be the weapon that you'll pick up on key press.

v9830¤:
¤ Fixed statues absorbing rads even before activation.

v9829:
¤ Fixed weapons sometimes rapidly flying off in a direction because of appearing at the same spot.
¤ Made another attempt in reducing cases where weapons near walls don't get sucked into portals.

v9826:
~ Made a very slight adjustment to drop rate formula so that having a plenty of ammo
(and/or melee weapon) with very low health would produce at least a few drops.
¤ Weapons no longer get stuck in walls instead of being dragged into a portal.

v9822:
¤ Fixed a bug where portals would quite often spawn on top of a random destroyed barrel in desert area.

v9814:
¤ Fixed portals spawning at an unnecessary offset from the last killed enemy.

So yeah, those changes are pretty minor but can help significantly. In particular the fact that the portal always spawn really really close to you. So no more time wasted walking to it and that also prevents a lot of big time loss in Desert, which makes the run faster and quite easier to grind.
The changes to weapons and statues are a bit more anecdotical but can still have a noticeable impact on gameplay.

Overall, this version is faster and more consistent for speedrun, while being a non-official hack. In pretty much any community of any game, running on it would be forbidden. Why should it be different for Nuclear Throne?

 
  CranberryCranberry

While the mod is not an official addition to the game, it does have approval from Vlambeer. As far as I'm concerned, the fact that it is a mod does not disqualify it from being used. There is a mod for Super Smash Brothers Brawl called Project M. It is in no way supported by Nintendo, and is listed as a seperate game on this website with a pretty large amount of players.It is quite literally the antithesis of your last statement.

I think the only factor that really matters here is how this mod affects gameplay. There are a lot of bugs in Nuclear Throne that add a lot of unintended variance without adding difficultly, such as portal glitching from exploding barrels, and if this mod removes that without making the game easier, I have no problem with it. The only thing that is an actual factor here is the change to the drop rate formula, which as far as I can tell is unknown. I tried asking the guy who made NTT on his blog the actual amount of change to the item drop rate, and I think that if the change isn't that big of a deal, we should not only allow, but encourage people to switch over to using NTT instead.

However, this is all just my opinion. While we wait to find out from YellowAfterlife, if he ever responds, I made a strawpoll to gauge how people feel about the concept of using a mod for speedrunning. The only thing you should be factoring in here is the concept of using a mod, not the content of this mod. Make sure you read it carefully, I feel like I made the wording overly complicated. Here is the url. http://www.strawpoll.me/10877176/r Have a nice day everyone.

 
  SenenSenen

I don't get what you're trying to tell with the Project M example. Nobody plays PM saying that they're playing Brawl. Because that would be stupid. So they make different leaderboards/tournament specifically for that mod. If you want to create a new NTT leaderbord on SRC, be my guest.

Also, NTT is not only more consistent but also faster (portal spawning on you instead of where the last enemy dies matters on a run that short, for instance, and that's not a bug fix that's just a QoL change.) So yeah, legalizing it would mean we'd have to choose between being competitive or actually playing the game whose name is the title of this leaderboard. Well, that sucks, imo.

 
  CranberryCranberry

PM is played as a seperate game because it changes the game enough to be considered seperate. I brought it up because you said that mods should never be allowed, which is something that I have a different opinion of. The only thing that should be a factor is whether or not the mod makes the game easier or creates less variance. Because this game already has so much RNG built in, I think if we can find a way to remove some variance without making the game any easier, we should try to do so. And I would prefer if you tried to make your points honestly. When you make blanket statements like portals spawn on you instead of enemies, but then don't include that this rarely happens, it makes it seem like you are trying to trick people. What would have to be removed from the current version of NTT to make it acceptable to you?

 
  SenenSenen

I haven't said mods should never be allowed. I said mods that give an advantage against running the official game shouldn't be allowed in the same category (and that's the way most communities work, except some very specific cases).
Heck, even if it was slower, I wouldn't like it, as it is a different game, but at least that wouldn't mean you have to play it to be competitive.

I'm all for an NTT solo category in the leaderboard if that's what you want. But allowing NTT runs in an NT leaderboard is basically asking runners to play a different game than the one whose title is the name of this leaderboard. I know it's a very similar game, but it's still a different game. Drops work differently, portals work differently, weapons (on the ground) work differently, statues work differently. It's not the same game.
Plus, if we allowed as it's not official, at any point the author can change whatever he wants in it which may raise once again the question of allowing the mod or not.

 
  CranberryCranberry

In the past we have always been fairly lax on which version of the game is used when the game was being updated frequently, since we didn't want to discredit runs done in past versions of the game. If we are this worried about playing different versions of the game, then we should wipe the boards of all runs that are pre update 98. We currently allow runs from update 90, which has way more differences than NTT has. I don't personally have a problem with still considering NTT the same game, since the changes it makes are essential things that should have been fixed months ago. I think this mod should qualify as one of your very specific cases.
If the maker of NTT makes any changes we don't like, we can continue to use this version, so that's not a big deal. As far as things working differently, I would say that they work correctly instead, except for the item drop issue which in my mind is the only factor against it. I don't see much of a reason to make it a solo category, but if thats the only way to allow it, I wouldn't have a problem with that.