MarlonChavesMCRMarlonChavesMCR

Hello friends I hope you attracted well 🙂

I realized that they created a "flawless" category and this is really good!

I was seeing some races and I realized that even in the "without fail" category there are still races where the player makes some small "bugs" to be able to go faster!

The objective of the "flawless" category is to run the game in the purest possible way!
Without using any artifice to circumvent or interrupt any action in the game.

Example: Holding the defense and jumping into the fire in one of the early stages of the game.

Anyway, just leaving here my opinion that I wanted the category "without fail" should be exulted without any shortcut.

OAleexOAleex and Yuri_oliveiraYuri_oliveira like this. 
  TenkaTenka

If this is what everyone agrees, I can amend the rules to include "no skips/shortcuts".

I don't really understand why there is a need for this rule though. I can understand not wanting to perform infinite jumps or out of bounds strategies as they can be monotonous and game breaking, but skipping sections and performing the game faster is one of the core benefits of speedrunning.

Furthermore it can be slippery slope determining what "is or isn't" a shortcut. If scorpion jumps across a small gap with his flame dash, is that a shortcut? If a someone puts a corpse in a spike and jumps on it, is that a shortcut?

The so called "shortcuts" you are describing seem more like "intended strategies" that are being used creatively rather than breaking the game. They aren't glitches. It doesn't make any sense to not allow them from a speedrunning perspective.

Disallowing infinite jump or out of bounds does make sense because it directly impacts gameplay significantly and is easily definable as to whether or not it breaks the rules. Not allowing shortcuts "of any kind" is much harder to make rules for and doesn't really change the gameplay for the better.

TheKombatKingTheKombatKing, MarlonChavesMCRMarlonChavesMCR and Yuri_oliveiraYuri_oliveira like this. 
  TenkaTenka
(edited: )

Again .. I am willing to make the rules based on how the community wants.

But consider what I am saying. These shortcuts are not "glitches" ... they are creatively using intended strategies of the game.

So, just consider that and what it means to not allow it. It means that the route is set in stone and there is no room for creativity if you don't allow them or allow discovering of new tricks that also perform more "shortcuts".

TheKombatKingTheKombatKing, MarlonChavesMCRMarlonChavesMCR and Yuri_oliveiraYuri_oliveira like this. 
  MarlonChavesMCRMarlonChavesMCR

I am in full agreement.
In fact, the "infinite" leap with Scorpion should not be allowed in this category.

To make it easier, we should take a video containing all the possible BUGS and shortcuts to define which should and which should not be used!

Facilitates everything at once 🙂

Yuri_oliveiraYuri_oliveira likes this. 
  MarlonChavesMCRMarlonChavesMCR

This is just an example:

in GOD OF WAR 2, the moderators created a video showing everything that is NOT allowed to be done in the GLITCHLESS category.

We should do the same with MK Shaolin Monks.

Yuri_oliveiraYuri_oliveira likes this. 
  ElfinoutElfinout

I think that the category split as it currently stands is fine. Maybe ammending the glitchless category to just No OoB would be better than detailing and excluding each and every glitch or exploit. Scorpion being able to cross the gap in Wasteland before the Goro fight is much different than Kung Lao being able to skip the entirety of sections by breaking the full boundaries of the game.

TenkaTenka and Yuri_oliveiraYuri_oliveira like this. 
  MarlonChavesMCRMarlonChavesMCR

This "infinite" leap that Scorpio doesn't make is possible with other characters like Liu Kang and Sub-Zero The new category was placed with the intention of running the game as cleanly as possible, otherwise it does not make sense to create a new category to run the game in the same way as the other categories.

Yuri_oliveiraYuri_oliveira likes this. 
  Yuri_oliveiraYuri_oliveira

I agree, I think that these "shortcuts" in the category also have to be banned, to be a category where everyone can run in a fair way

 
  ElfinoutElfinout

There is no such thing as running in a fair way though. Each character is different in the speed that they can run the game. Even if we take out every single glitch and exploit in the entire run, one character will still be the fastest over the others regardless. Whether it is from a gap skip or being able to beat bosses faster by having better stagger mechanics. It still ends in one character being the best, so if that is the case then what we would need to instill is a character-by-character category which would be extremely tedious.

TheKombatKingTheKombatKing and TenkaTenka like this. 
  MarlonChavesMCRMarlonChavesMCR

My Last Comment Regarding This Subject:

The Glitchless category was created with the intention of FACILITATING the race so that even beginning players can compete in the cleanest way possible.

For those who like to use "shortcuts" and "infinite jumps" just run in the "All Medallions" category or even "Any%"

That's basically it friends! I hope you understand.

 
  ElfinoutElfinout

It isn't as simple as "run another category". To determine what would even be allowed in the "Glitchless" category would require drastic lines to be drawn in the sand.

Does damage boosting through the fire in Wu-Shei cause as much of an issue as the Sky-Box skip bypassing Lightning Pole in wasteland? Is damage boosting even a glitch? It is an intended mechanic of the game, the only difference is how it is utilized by the players.

Does being able to perform the additional multalities and brutalities, that one wouldn't normally get until unlocking the particular Red Koin it is tied to later in the game, mean that the run is invalid because a beginner wouldn't know the inputs without looking them up or first unlocking them? If so that would require a NG+ style ruling since some multalities and brutalities may be more effective or faster than others.

Does infinitely staggering Shao-Kahn at the end defeat the purpose of the difficulty of the boss, thus making the run not "clean"?

I agreed originally that Out of Bounds creates a massive rift in how the game is played. It single-handedly bypasses a majority of the game, and no other character can even begin to compete with Kung Lao in terms of speed. But I think to split it even further into absolutely no glitches or exploits being allowed is antithetical to the premise of speedrunning. Especially since we don't even know what all glitches exist and to what degree.

TheKombatKingTheKombatKing and TenkaTenka like this. 
  TenkaTenka

The category already bans "infinite jump".
"Infinite jump and Out of bounds" are the two things banned in glitchless.

Renaming the category to "No OOB/ Infinite Jump" might be a good solution as well.

What @ElfinoutElfinout says regarding "making characters fair" is also true. It's impossible, one will always come out on top eventually.

Quote

The Glitchless category was created with the intention of FACILITATING the race so that even beginning players can compete in the cleanest way possible.

This is already accomplished with the current rules set as the only allowed shortcuts are easy/reasonable to perform and don't require infinite jumps or out of bounds method.

The rules are pretty simple as is:

- No Infinite jump
- No Out of Bounds

- If you can do a shortcut using "normal moves" and no infinite jump or out of bounds, then it is allowed.

This:
1. Keeps the run approachable to newcomers.
2. Maintains the majority of "natural" gameplay.
3. Allows for potential further evolution to the route if new tricks are discovered which don't involve Infinite jump or out of bounds glitches.
4. Is easier to verify and maintain rules for as it keeps the rules simple and is easily observable if someone used an infinite jump or got out of bounds.

If we disallow shortcuts as well then:
1. Still true
2. Still true
3. The route is locked into specifically beating every section in the game with no chance of discovering new techniques.
4. Is much harder to keep a clear rules. Much like MarlonChaves suggested, we would have to define what counts as a shortcut and what doesnt. It's a long and arduous process and can constantly change as more possibilities are discovered.

Banning shortcuts doesn't seem like a good idea in my opinion.

Furthermore, just .. banning shortcuts which are not difficult to perform and are performed using legitimate in game strats is pretty unorthodox in speedrunning. Usually people want to skip whatever sections they can. I don't really understand why you would want to ban it.

TheKombatKingTheKombatKing, MarlonChavesMCRMarlonChavesMCR and ElfinoutElfinout like this. 
  MarlonChavesMCRMarlonChavesMCR

I agree with the last comment from "Tenka"
So I believe that everything is clear.

I wonder if you agree with me that the "little fire BUG" should NOT be used in the glitchless category

 
  TheKombatKingTheKombatKing

So basically a "purist" category is being proposed?

hm...

I don't completely hate the idea, but I think the community for this title is a bit too small now to cut categories up to this extreme. I certainly worry about the likeliness of attracting new runners to this board, and I think the current glitchless category is a good "sweet spot" for that now. Things like damage boosting and the lighting pole skip are things that a newcomer could catch onto pretty easily.

For real though, this game is pretty jank at times, and possibly incomplete. It's practically begging us to play it in weird ways. I think the only lines in the sand we can really draw at this point are "Major Exploits" and "Minor Exploits." And the minor exploits have always felt like part of the game to me. I say let 'em fly in the glitchless category.

TenkaTenka and ElfinoutElfinout like this. 
  MarlonChavesMCRMarlonChavesMCR

Very well my friends ...
What is the verdict?

 
  ElfinoutElfinout

I say we just rename glitchless to No OoB and call it good. I think everything under that line is free game.

TheKombatKingTheKombatKing and TenkaTenka like this. 
  TenkaTenka

I renamed it to (No OOB/ No Infinite Jump)
It should be much clearer then.

I think the Liu Kang "fire invinicibility" should be allowed. Same with Scorpion flame dash movement and using spikes on corpeses to reach higher areas.

This way the category name implies what it means more accurately. Banning of the two strats which I would consider "excessively intrusive to gameplay".

If we happen to get a lot more runners one day we can revisit the idea of a "purist" category.

Between platform separation, emu/hardware separation and sp vs co-op, the leaderboard is already fragmented enough.

TheKombatKingTheKombatKing, ElfinoutElfinout and 2 others like this. 
  TheKombatKingTheKombatKing

I'm good with what Elfinout said, fellers.

TenkaTenka and ElfinoutElfinout like this. 
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