Mario Kart: Double Dash!! Forum  /  Non-Glitch Category?
  iMathIIiMathII

Something I've been thinking about since the new category for ztech was made, is the possibility of a "non-glitch" category, where no shortcuts are allowed, and no other glitches like ztech.

Historically this category wasn't really warranted since when the game was first being run there were only 1 or 2 shortcuts that were too impactful of the run, and it became kind of the culture of the game that we'd have just a single category for MKDD.

Now that we've broken that barrier with ztech, I think a new category for non-glitch is warranted, after all it's a standard category in every other Mario Kart game.

I brought this up in the discord server a while ago, but my idea was shot down because people seemed to think that the creation of that new category wouldn't be feasible, that it was impossible to create the new category because of rules about where players might want their runs on the leaderboards. I only just read the site's rules about stuff like this, and it seems like there isn't actually anything wrong with it

feel free to read: https://www.speedrun.com/knowledgebase/moderation-rules

the most relavent line to me is "Do not list a player's runs on a leaderboard if they explicitly do not want it listed.", some people argued that it's wrong to make the non-glitch category, because the people who have already done non-glitch runs might not want their runs on the main category knowing there's a non-glitch category. But the rules say specifically that those players have to say, and if they do say then it shouldn't be too hard to move their run to the non-glitch category.

And for those wondering, the category wouldn't involve copying any runs over automatically, it would be treated like any new category, it starts empty and people can add runs if they want to, including past runs that happen to follow the rules at the time.

My final point will be about changing the game, people have said the ztech completely changes how the game is played, and at the end of the day i have to agree, but shortcuts, in my opinion, are much more impactful. As far as timesave, ztech can save 30sec in ACT on a good run at top level, but the Bowser's Castle optimal shortcut on its own can save over a minute. Not only that, but the shortcut is very hard, as are some other shortcuts, and in a way that is definitely different from normal driving, and i think could be scaring players away from running the category, seeing if they get to top level they'd have to do all these shortcuts.

That's all I have for now, please consider what I've said, and let me know what you think 🙂

 
  GoombaGoomba
(edited: )

Quote

I brought this up in the discord server a while ago, but my idea was shot down because people seemed to think that the creation of that new category wouldn't be feasible, that it was impossible to create the new category because of rules about where players might want their runs on the leaderboards. I only just read the site's rules about stuff like this, and it seems like there isn't actually anything wrong with it

feel free to read: https://www.speedrun.com/knowledgebase/moderation-rules


I've carefully read your message and I'd like to address a few things.

First of all, putting it as if we simply shut you down because of site rules is very misleading and inaccurate, so let me lay it down:

The problem with adding a glitchless category is that there are current runs that would actually fall into the category, contrary to not a single run on the Standard leaderboard having z-tech in it. Because of this, having a glitchless category would be extremely confusing, and as moving over people's runs goes against many things: Some people wouldn't want their time on a different leaderboard, it wouldn't be accurate, and it would make the main category a messy combination of both. Whatever the site says is allowed is not necessarily whatever we need to abide by. And thus you rightly mention that it at the very least should be an empty start -- But that goes against the first point again.

To discuss all the current shortcuts:
- Mushroom Cup: None
- Flower Cup:
• Mushroom Bridge affects only the top 3 really. Ideas has a #7 time with it but it's such a difficult trick to get down consistently to be able to grind flower at the same time that only top level is affected as it makes much more sense to grind down other timesaves before attempting to master this skip to squeeze out more timesave.
• Waluigi Stadium's skip has the opposite difficulty level where it's incredibly easy to learn, yet is also a small timesave. I could see not wanting to do it but again it's a small difference in the run.
- Star Cup:
• Mushroom City skip you could do with babies or grinding it out and somehow getting it with barrel train first try and being able to get a great run on top of that. It really isn't happening as of yet and it'll be difficult to actually grind it out and get a great run on top of it.
- Special Cup:
• Wario Colosseum skip no one has done yet because it's completely impractical to do in such a way that saves time, and get a good run on top of that.
• Bowser's Castle is really the only shortcut that has a large impact on the run. But because it is so difficult to do, not many people actually use the shortcut until you get to top level. The old and easy version of the skip with a blue shell gets used pretty early on however.

So in the end, it really comes down to Bowser's Castle only, and the players at the very top having to consider mushroom bridge skip for flower cup, not even attempting it in all cup tour.

To me it feels like the only real point of adding glitchless would be to try for WR, not any competition. We already can't move the times over as it's impossible to tell if video-less runs did waluigi skip or not for example. So the only competition would probably be the top players who actually deal with shortcuts the most, and thus, a small competition for the fastest time. If there's anyone else interested in playing without these shortcuts specifically, feel free to let me know, but to me it seems more like a novelty more fit for a category extension rather than an actual competition.

Quote

people have said the ztech completely changes how the game is played, and at the end of the day i have to agree, but shortcuts, in my opinion, are much more impactful.

The problem is that z-tech can affect literally any track in the game, shortcut or not. The sheer timesave isn't also comparable to top level, as for some, z-tech might save 20 seconds, for others, maybe 60 seconds. It's more about the manner which it does it, and there's already been a discussion on this and how it affects the game and its driving.

Quote

Not only that, but the shortcut is very hard, as are some other shortcuts, and in a way that is definitely different from normal driving, and i think could be scaring players away from running the category, seeing if they get to top level they'd have to do all these shortcuts.

"All these shortcuts" seems to be really pushing it, considering if you look at it, only Mushroom Bridge and Bowser seem to have an impact, with Mushroom Bridge not even being applied to all cup tour as of yet. The driving on Mushroom Bridge and Bowser's Castle gets compromised, but with z-tech, driving on at least a majority of tracks (can) get compromised, offering a way more different experience compared to adding shortcuts.

I can definitely look into creating an MKDD category extensions page and adding glitchless there, along with some other runs such as shine thief. As for now, I don't think adding glitchless to the main board is warranted.

iMathIIiMathII likes this. 
  iMathIIiMathII

Hey, sorry it's been so long I did some more thinking since then and I have a couple things to say.

Firstly, I think your logic is slightly flawed here:

Quote

The problem with adding a glitchless category is that there are current runs that would actually fall into the category, contrary to not a single run on the Standard leaderboard having z-tech in it. Because of this, having a glitchless category would be extremely confusing, and as moving over people's runs goes against many things: Some people wouldn't want their time on a different leaderboard, it wouldn't be accurate, and it would make the main category a messy combination of both.

The fact is that each run fits into both categories, even though none of them used z-tech. Since the site rules don't allow copying leaderboards a choice had to be made about which leaderboard would be the "original" and got to keep all the old runs. To me, because of all the shortcuts involved, the unified category always felt like the "unrestricted" category, and if I were forced to choose I would prefer my runs to stay in the current "unrestricted" category rather than "Standard" because that's where I was submitting them to originally. So I don't think it's right to say that we can't have a new category because people might want their times on a different leaderboard, because you only need to change your perspective a bit to see that that already happened with z-tech.

One quick side note to that is that I didn't see much official discussion about which would be the main category before the decision was made to split them, which was upsetting to me. Although it seems to have worked out well enough, and my poll results afterwards showed the majority would've wanted this, so I can't deny that the outcome was for the best, and I don't think it needs to change or be reevaluated.

I like your idea to add it as a category extension, especially since that creates potential for more categories to add there like shine thief and whatever else we can think of. I'm not sure if it would fit with the format to add all cups as well as ACT for a category extension, if it can then great but otherwise just ACT is fine with me. I think having it there is better than nothing, and if it gets enough attention then we can pick up this discussion again. Until then I just want to let the people know that I don't think there's anything wrong with the possibility of adding it as a new category.

Thanks for reading, I know I've been on about this for a while now but I think this is a good compromise 🙂

 
  GoombaGoomba

Quote


So I don't think it's right to say that we can't have a new category because people might want their times on a different leaderboard, because you only need to change your perspective a bit to see that that already happened with z-tech.

You already mention one of the reasons why I think it's different -- The fact that there are no z-tech runs in the Standard category right now, and that there are in the unrestricted. Considering the majority's opinion we had to make the split as a new tech was born. You can't really argue that it's the same as adding a new category for a new tech when in the beginning, shortcuts were already in contention with this category. Everyone who has submitted did so knowing that they're competing against this. Not competing against z-tech (or potential future advances).
You saying that you'd prefer unrestricted is something you can do right now and you can delete your times in the other category if you'd like. Same for other people who would've preferred that -- But you'd have to know about z-tech in order to feel that way regardless, which means you'd be active enough to make this choice. With shortcut and glitchless being added, people might've wanted to post in a different one right from the start.

Quote

One quick side note to that is that I didn't see much official discussion about which would be the main category

Well there's
Quote

poll results afterwards showed the majority would've wanted this

There's been a discussion on it for weeks whether or not to split z-tech into something
new, and it's been thoroughly discussed in the discord. We've constantly mentioned a new category that many people don't want to compete with. This implies that the Unrestricted category is the new and separate one from the one with all the times. That was also one of the issues we were talking about and how moving them over wouldn't really be fair. So to say that there wasn't much official discussion is wrong because there clearly was, but you were one of the only few arguing against it.

Quote

Thanks for reading, I know I've been on about this for a while now but I think this is a good compromise 🙂

No offense, but it's hardly a compromise when this is literally what category extensions are for, hence why I brought it up.