Forums  /  Mortal Kombat: Armageddon  /  Arcade Leaderboard Confusing and a glitch / bug that affect speedrunning.
  Epica

Hello, I was trying to speedrun Arcade, but as the title says the Leaderboard itself and rules are confusing.

"This category uses an in-game timer." You mean the in-game timer from the Arcade? So why Real time seems like is the one that defines the positions? And with the Blaze rounds, It's only the time you fight againts him, or the whole fight even when he is ko in the ground?

Now, about the glitch / bug, I don't know how to call it, really "breaks" the in-game timer, let me point out a few things first.

*When you throw the IA to an Instakill, while this "cutscene" timers seems to stop, it resumes when the second round starts or go to the next fight.

*When you throw the IA to a Yellow Mark, while this "cutscene" timers seems to stop as well, it resumes when the fight keeps going.

This maybe is a problem, but not as what I am going to tell you.

When you beat the IA two rounds and goes to "finish him/her" screen, you have two things to do, hit the IA so you can go faster to the other fight (what most speedruns do, pretty logical) or apply a fatality, which is not very practical for a speedrun, but here is the deal.

*When you hit the IA while at Finish screen, it will fall and the timer will keep going till screen fades. This means the victory cutscene will affect the in-game timer.

*But if you decide to apply a fatality, as soon as you do (as far as I experiment with is) timer will stop till the next fight starts. So this means after killing your opponent, timer will be still stoped.

So, what is the big deal with this, you may ask? Well, after finising the first fight you can get:

Without Fatality: 0:48
With Fatality: 0:42

This is what I discovered while i was expermienting with this, you should try it by yourselvesif you don't believe me.

Now, is this fair? This should be allowed? This leaderboard needs a new way to record the time?

I hope you can answer to this thread soon, and if you have some doubts, don't hesitate to ask.

TheKombatKing likes this. 
  Kromer

Hey @Epica.

So, let's break this down in a few topics:

1. It's not the RTA that define positions but the IGT, look up to the Arcade (PS2/Xbox) 1st and 2nd places, you will notice there.
2. About Blaze's fight, it's only added the round times, not the whole fight, which is in fact inaccurate and i don't have any problems with retiming all runs if needed.
3. For the IGT calculation may seem weird at first but is effective, one interesting thing about the IGT is the way we can manipulate it (using death traps and fatalities as you said) and i believe prohibiting this kind of thing (for this MK in specific) would not be a good thing, you see, speedruns of MK Armageddon are not that attractive and/or impressive to watch, so we have to show at least something different rather than just punch the floor with Goro for 8 minutes straight.

At last, i agree with a small change about Blaze's fight calculation, but i don't see any other change being required.

Edit: Although, it's up to the moderators to decide.

TheKombatKing and Tenka like this. 
  Epica

Thanks for the reply.

Yes I notcied that after I posted this thread, I feel a bit stupid now, and thanks for letting me know about blaze.

I know It is not very interesting to punch the ground with goro for 8 minutes, but we are doing speedruns and in my opinion delaying the in-game timer doing something that takes longer than not doing a fatality shouldn't be allowed,

 
  TheKombatKing

Hey Epica.

You raise some good points. The timing method for these 3D-era games is weird, but it's always just... worked. Honestly, I've never had anyone question it before. I'm open to trying other timing methods, if it would smooth things out and balance things. I kind of like Kromer's idea of manually timing the final boss fights in these games.

 
  Epica

In my opinion mods should do the timing manually, It's hard but it will be fair.

 
  Kromer

The manual timing is about Blaze's fight only, so the runner can do it and just add in to the IGT.

 
  Epica

I know but what I am saying is that needs to change, making longer a speedrun for having less time at the in-game timer is completely nonsense.

 
  Kromer

Well, i mean, In-Game Time always have less time than RTA.

 
  UNICOY

What he's trying to say, and I agree with him, is that using RTA is far better than the IGT. The IGT is manipulable by performing fatalities or "stage fatalities" in which the timer will stop. This makes no sense for a speedrun since a speedrun consists in finishing a game as fast as possible.

For the RTA, you would remove the loading times and only use the time spent during the fight. This means that the time would count from when the fight starts, until the screen fades at the end of it. By doing this, you make sure that player actually submits the time in which they were actually playing and not a relative time such as the IGT.

 
  Kromer

I agree with some of that, saving IGT with fatalities is nonsense indeed, but Death Traps (Stage Fatalities) saves time on both IGT and RTA and for that i consider keeping Death Traps.
I completely disagree with using RTA over IGT, RTA is the most inconsistent timing method on 3D MKs as it can vary depending on your hardware (ex: Xbox has a slower RTA than PS2) and also has massive difference between a real hardware and emulator, so using RTA as the main timing method (in this case) is beyond stupid.

 
  UNICOY

Performing an instant kill (stage fatality) stops the IGT, not the RTA. Of course that performing those save time in both ways, but only the IGT stops.

And about the RTA, it's not inconsistent at all. As I said before, you should NOT consider loading times for the final time since the game it's hardware dependent when it comes to this matter. This means that ONLY the fights would count towards the real time.

On the other hand, if the different versions of the game differ from each other, then there should be different categories, one per version.

 
  Kromer

Originally posted by UNICOYPerforming an instant kill (stage fatality) stops the IGT, not the RTA. Of course that performing those save time in both ways, but only the IGT stops.

Still, i don't see why not having death traps since it saves time on both sides.

Originally posted by UNICOYAnd about the RTA, it's not inconsistent at all. As I said before, you should NOT consider loading times for the final time since the game it's hardware dependent when it comes to this matter. This means that ONLY the fights would count towards the real time.

That's misleading, we gotta decide which is the best choice, is it IGT or RTA? Cause if we should not consider loading times that makes RTA useless, loading times ARE included in RTA. Also, you will notice loading differences depending on your hardware spec (ex: a PS2 JPN SCPH-90k is generally faster than a PS2 US SCPH-70k) which is also a thing if your Disc is scratched. My point is, if the game offers an accurate IGT and we can use it in a way to make everything fair and square for everyone, then why not using it as the main timing method? I vow to keep the the way it is, having IGT as the main competitive time and RTA as secondary.

Originally posted by UNICOYOn the other hand, if the different versions of the game differ from each other, then there should be different categories, one per version.

I agree with that. To conclude, i think the only rule change we need is "Using Fatalities to manipulate IGT is prohibited".

TheKombatKing likes this. 
  TheKombatKing

I think I'm with Kromer on pretty much everything he said in that last large statement.

I'm not sure I understand the argument against death traps. Sounds like they do your run a favor either way. I understand why we would prohibit fatalities... or maybe encourage fatalities? I kind of like the idea of manipulating the timer, but that's just me.

As for IGT, the big reason I've tried to avoid it on these 3D-era games is because of the loading times. They're all over the place, depending on the hardware. We can do the "with loads" / "Without loads" timing that I've seen on other leaderboards on the site, if that's what people really want. It's a lot of work though, for both the runner and the mod.

 
  UNICOY

Guys, it's not that hard to understand. I never said anything about banning the death traps or anything like that. If you perform a stage fatality, the IGT will stop (or even when you use a normal trap). So, you use RTA so all the animation counts towards the final time. Also, banning fatalities doesn't make sense either. Let people use them, but we need RTA so all that counts too, because fatalities stop the timer as well.

And once again... Since the versions are different, there are several loading times and the run is hardware dependent, let's use RTA. It's fair for everyone, and no, the loading times not necessarily have to count for the final time. You just delete those. As TKK said, you could do the "with loads" / "Without loads" timing. It's not hard work at all. And well, you are the mods after all, you are supposed to verifiy the runs. They last like 10 minutes, it's not that much of a work. There are runs for other games that last hours and they still delete the loading times...

Also, the IGT has nothing to do with the loading times...

 
  Epica

I'm here again. Let me explain everything with details now, cus I see you are not able to understand.

Fatalities, Stage Fatalities and Yellow Marks stop the in-game timer, so this mean that the IN-GAME TIMER is the PROBLEM.
Why? Because we are doing SPEEDRUNS.
What are Speedruns? Its like finish the game AS FAST AS POSSIBLE.

So what this means? Start using RTA and runs should be scored W/O LOADS.
Why W/O Loads you may ask? Because there are a lot of PS2 models and other versions, and for example PS2 games can be loaded with a HDD to make load faster.
You don't want to make w/o loads cus you are lazy? Why you moderating?

Why is this needed? To make this load more fair to everyone, simple as that.

 
  Kromer

I'm here again. Let me explain everything with details now, cus I see you are not able to understand.

@Epica and @UNICOY
If you guys want RTA w/o loads, then just use IGT w/o making fatalities neither using Yellow Marks, the final time result will literally be the SAME thing.

@Epica
IN-GAME TIME IS NOT THE PROBLEM, if he gets stopped by making Fatalities, DON'T DO A FATALITY THEN!
The reason i'm saying "just keep Death Traps" it's because they save time no matter what, something that Fatalities and Yellow Marks only benefit for IGT, which i DON'T agree using.

Originally posted by EpicaWhat are Speedruns? Its like finish the game AS FAST AS POSSIBLE.

Let me correct you here, it's completing an objective on a game as fast as possible, not necessarely finishing it.
So thank you for the lesson, but i'm not a beginner on speedrunning, i know what i'm doing here.

Originally posted by EpicaYou don't want to make w/o loads cus you are lazy? Why you moderating?

We can debate how much you want, but calling insults like that will not get you anywhere here, in fact, people will be ignoring you overtime.

Originally posted by EpicaWhy is this needed? To make this load more fair to everyone, simple as that.

What part of "Using IGT, so regardless the version, console spec and Disc integrity you will always get the same time as everyone else, so it makes 100% fair and practical for everyone" you guys don't understand?

 
  UNICOY

This is literally the last reply to this because I refuse to believe you are being serious. You are either trolling or I don't know. But just looking at your ego with that "Best brazilian speedrunner on Speedrun.com" and your way to reply and take opinions as insults is just pathetic, and it gives me a clue about what all this is coming from. Also, amazing way to approach to someone being passive-agressive, as a MOD.

At least you now recognized that the traps affect the IGT and RTA differently. Avoiding the traps and stage fatalities are almost impossible. You either end up performing it on a bot by mistake, or you end up getting caught in one, even fatalities are sometimes triggered by mistake. Why would you ban something that's part of the game? Just use RTA, simple as that.

Also, since you said "If you guys want RTA w/o loads, then just use IGT w/o making fatalities neither using Yellow Marks, the final time result will literally be the SAME thing", do you think that's fair to the guys who already submitted their runs and used the traps and the fatalities? You are just going in circles.

Once again, if the versions differ, make new categories. Use RTA and do NOT count loading times so no one will be affected.

By the way, you clearly knew what Epica meant. You are supposed to finish THIS game as fast as possible. Manipulating the IGT so you get less time than the real one is not part of finishing a game as fast as possible.

Sad that you took our opinions in that way. I also never knew that "lazy" was an insult. Well, keep working with the current IGT so you don't have to go through a lot of work, verifying a 10 minutes run.

 
  Epica

It looks like you got offended with what I said, anywayts it's your problem.

You don't want to understand what I'm saying, or you are just stupid, I will wait for KombatKing response.

 
  Kromer

@UNICOY

Originally posted by UNICOYThis is literally the last reply to this because I refuse to believe you are being serious. You are either trolling or I don't know.

YOU my friend, must be the one trolling, you come here, from what i see, with zero interest on speedrunning the game and just start ranting about the rules and demanding changes, here some fresh news to you, no one called you here.

Originally posted by UNICOYBut just looking at your ego with that "Best brazilian speedrunner on Speedrun.com" and your way to reply and take opinions as insults is just pathetic

And i am, i'm the best Brazilian speedrunner, not because of WRs, but i'm the hardest worker around, moderating leaderboards daily, speedrunning multiple games, teaching newcomers and always interacting with the community, until you find someone who pushes as hard as i do, i'll be on 1st place. You don't like egotistic people? I'll say to you that's nothing but confidence.

Originally posted by UNICOYAlso, amazing way to approach to someone being passive-agressive, as a MOD.

I'm not a mod here, just a verifier, i don't make the changes here, but i'm definetely the one with the most reasonable solution, cause by looking at it, i'm pretty sure none of you two never seriously moderated a leaderboard before. Maybe was not an insult after all, but is definetely a bad attitude of you people for not getting what you want.

Originally posted by UNICOYAt least you now recognized that the traps affect the IGT and RTA differently.

I ALWAYS KNEW THAT, are you blind to not see that i said this YEARS ago?

Originally posted by UNICOYAvoiding the traps and stage fatalities are almost impossible.You either end up performing it on a bot by mistake, or you end up getting caught in one, even fatalities are sometimes triggered by mistake. Why would you ban something that's part of the game? Just use RTA, simple as that.

By saying that just shows how you NEVER even tried to speedrun the game before.

Originally posted by UNICOYdo you think that's fair to the guys who already submitted their runs and used the traps and the fatalities? You are just going in circles.

Simple, just add new rules stating: Runs prior (date) are excused from these rules and there you go, we will not even need to touch any of the currently verified runs.

Originally posted by UNICOYUse RTA and do NOT count loading times so no one will be affected.

MY GOD DUDE! IGT ALREADY DOES THAT! You don't like the fact that IGT is manipulable? LET'S NOT MANIPULATE IT THEN! What's so goddamn hard to understand?

Originally posted by UNICOYManipulating the IGT so you get less time than the real one is not part of finishing a game as fast as possible.

I DON'T agree with manipulating IGT either!!

Originally posted by UNICOYWell, keep working with the current IGT so you don't have to go through a lot of work

The only difference of using IGT w/o manipulation and RTA w/o loads, is that by using RTA we would need to take out every single loading screen from every speedrun submission, if we use IGT then just calculate Blaze's fight as RTA and add to the IGT and that's it!

@Epica

Originally posted by EpicaYou don't want to understand what I'm saying, or you are just stupid

Nah, your ideas are just stupid, they are complete nonsense to what a competitive timing method should look like.