Hey everyone, if you don't know I found a possible skip yesterday. It's a 30 seconds time save for every difficulty on All Bosses PC. I called it the Explosion Skip and this is how it works :

- Start the Hind fight
- Gets Hind life bar to 0 hp
- Suicide before the explosion cutscene
- Take the ladder again and leave the roof
- Go downstairs and reach Wolf2 fight using GME2

It saves 25 to 30 seconds (depending on how fast you suicide)

The thing now is to know if it would be allowed. I think it brings the question about the leaderboard's rules. The Hind is not considered as defeated BEFORE we fight Wolf2 and there's a grey area there. In my opinion the rules have to be more precise.

Considering the way we shuffle on Wolf2 to skip the animation, should it be allowed ? Cause even tho its lifebar is empty, the Hind is never considered by the game as defeated BEFORE we fight Wolf2, thus on Wolf2 when we shuffle it's considered by the game as defeated BEFORE we fight Raven.

Current rules of the AB category are "This includes their life bars" What does it mean ? If it said "you must defeat every boss in the game, this means you have to empty their life bars" Then yes it would be 100% legit, but the rule is vage rn.
Is the life bar one of the condition or is it the only condition ?

The point of doing AB is to perform bosses fights as fast as possible. This means using a strat and try not to lose time until their health reaches 0 and we can't damage them anymore. Basically that's the thing we do when we run AB. Since there's no more way to damage the Hind after its lifebar is empty, we did actually beat it, that's a fact. All we have to do is wait for the game to allow us to leave the room and keep on with the run. I think it's different on console (and NMG) cause you can still die, so avoiding getting killed at the end is part of the boss fight (and this . But on AB PC we use GME and so we can't die. From a purely speedrun perspective the explosion skip is totally legit : we performed the fight as fast as possible until its lifebar is empty, then we left the room by any possible way so we can keep going into the run. But from a game design perspective it's not legit because the Hind is not considered as defeated. It's a tough question and it has to be decided and then specified in the rules. I'm seeing this from a speedrunner perspective but i'm undecided about it because both points make sense.

So I think we should have a vote to edit the AB rules. There's 3 possibilities :

1. Skip not allowed (game design perspective). New rules :
- the lifebar of a boss must be empty and they should be considered by the game as defeated before you trigger the next boss fight

2. Skip allowed (speedrun perspective). New rules :
- the lifebar of a boss must be lowered to 0hp and that's the only condition for them to be considered as defeated

3. Skip not allowed and Wolf2 shuffle banned. New rules :
- the lifebar of a boss must be lowered to 0hp and the upgrade animation has to be played for the boss to be considered as defeated

You can vote 1, 2 or 3. I think it's legit to consider that you need to have an MGS1 run on the leaderboard or a video (marathon etc) showing you run the game to be able to vote. I'll keep this updated.

Voted 1 : @repeatzzzzzrepeatzzzzz @dlimes13dlimes13 @KingofTheBeezKingofTheBeez @iLL_PazzoiLL_Pazzo @ShardOfKingdomsShardOfKingdoms

Voted 2 : @VermillionNoelVermillionNoel @young_sn0wyoung_sn0w

Voted 3 : @TromboncinoTromboncino @Hau5testHau5test

I think the question lies in if the game respawns the boss. If you COCK glitch out of the Wolf 2 fight, and then re-enter Snowfield, the game doesn't respawn Wolf 2, therefore the game counts her as defeated, however if you re-enter Hind, does the Hind respawn? If so then I'd vote option 1.

Yes the boss respawns cause it's not considered as dead by the game, you just suicided to restart the fight when the Hind is 0hp and then you leave the room and go to Wolf2. But you basically did the whole fight as it's intended in the run, you just skip the explosion cutscene + Otacon codec.

2

None of these options are hills I'm willing to die on, so I abstain.
I like discussions so I'll drop my take at least.
I say 1 makes the most sense given the fact the boss respawns. This really doesn't skip anything, its basically the same thing as just dying to the final Hind missiles and getting a continue.

I mean I don't post that to force this tech to be allowed, I'm undecided myself about it, I just think the rules need some clarification about this kind of things. If it's allowed it should be specified, if it's not then it should be specified aswell.

Both Wolf2 and Hind are not considered defeated by the game and both respawn if you enter the fight again.

Wolf2 doesn't respawn simply because touching the trigger for the next cutscene erases the fight, but technically you still don't have the boss defeated flag even if you drop down all the HP, it's the same exact technique you use in Any%.

To prove my point further, using F7 to reload the fight on Wolf2 after you've dealt the last shot reloads the fight from the beginning with her lifebar completely full, however if you do that during the rank up animation it's just over.

-

Hard decision, because Wolf2's should've never been allowed in the first place if you ask me. Now there are runs on the board and deleting them simply because the glitch no longer applies according to the rules is just not fair.
So there are only 2 options here (option 1 is a misconception on how the game works), either 2 or 3.

Reluctantly, my vote goes to 3 for consistency sake.

I believe defeated in the rules means that the boss can no longer be fought.
"You must defeat every boss in the game, this includes their life bars."
Think about it like this, in Any% when you enter Commander Room, the game considers Mantis as defeated, but the All Bosses rules simultaneously require the health to be depleted to zero.
When you COCK glitch through the Wolf 2 trigger, the game considers her defeated, however you are required to have lowered her health to zero for it to be valid for All Bosses.
Neither of these bosses could be fought a second time in the run under these conditions.

Therefore skipping Wolf 2 "level up" is allowed because you never skipped the boss, the boss is in fact defeated and can no longer be fought, and you lowered her HP to zero. This fulfills both requirements.

Explosion skip would not be allowed because the Hind is not defeated, you can still fight it. You only fulfilled one requirement for a valid All Bosses run.

I think this fight is not considerd defeated even tho you lowered him to 0hp.
After u suicide, the game still thinks you havent defeated him and like said above, its like dying from the last missile so the game wants you to fight him again.

so my vote goes to 1.

Yeah going back and banning Wolf 2 COCK/Shuffle/whatever you want to call it after many runs on the board have it is an absolute no go. Now, I'm generally for time saves, QoL stuff (still need analog addressed), but this seems cheap IMO. Also big RIP to Big Boss runners (even though there are just couple).

1. If you want to clarify the rules so this loophole is closed, that's the best. My vote.

This would be the only other boss something like this would technically work. So this would close a Hind loophole without fear of skipping other bosses. If this changed story flags or allowed us to do 4 Horsemen, totally different story. This is no different from dying to the final shot, the 4th shot, or anywhere in the fight.

"Wolf2's should've never been allowed in the first place if you ask me."

Agree with this from Trom. The game has a clear level-up/item-count-increase system after you beat the bosses that should have been used as the cue for "this boss ded" for All Bosses. Regardless of lifebar, I think we can all agree that the game increasing your health and increasing your item count is the game telling us the boss is defeated, because it's our reward.

I vote #2.

1

I'd like to point out that I don't think level up = boss defeated. Just because the game gives you the level up when you defeat the boss does not make it the end all be all.
Boss defeated imo means you can no longer fight that boss in the run.
That's why the rules have two requirements.
Defeat the boss AND deplete health to zero.

Therfore Wolf 2 shuffle is fine. Explosion skip is not.

Allowing explosion skip is basically making an arbitrary ruleset for what we're allowed to skip in the run, and changing the rules to ban Wolf 2 shuffle is pointless because runs that use it abided by the current ruleset.
I'd just run glitchless if you really view the shuffle as skipping the boss.

Once again, if this literally skipped the end of the hind fight, and the hind was removed from the game with its health depleted to 0 then I'd be all for it.

But the Hind is there still attacking you for 30 seconds, just because it has no health does not mean it's dead or defeated.
The hind is still there waiting for you.

"I'd like to point out that I don't think level up = boss defeated"

It's the one consistent thing among finishing the boss fights, you get a level up, your health/item count increases.

Technically, you DID fight the Hind, got him to 0 health, and purposely took a death to skip later content. Intentional deaths are a thing in speedruns, Ghost Babel has one.

If all the other bosses had some sort of trick akin to Wolf 2 and Hind, it'd be nice to see if they respawn or not, because I think when you get into the "Wolf 2 doesn't respawn, therefore defeated" territory, it's really up to how the game was programmed, not to mention, the area reloader is a byproduct of bmn's launcher, so you also have to account what that is doing to the game.

Just felt I should give more detail why I look at the level-up as the cue for boss defeated, I'll let others vote now and give them a chance to speak.

Altough I understand your point snow, I think Wolf2 is perfectly legit because the boss is considered as defeated. That's not the case with Hind and that's a very different story. I'm all for rule clarification so we don't get this kind of dilemma later so, to me, the rules should say "A boss needs their health to be depleted to 0 and should be despawned and considered by the game as defeated before you start the next boss fight" So I vote 1 for a rule clarification and not allow explosion skip, but let Wolf2 shuffle be allowed cause you did depleted her health to 0, she despawned and she's considered dead by the game before you start the Raven's fight

3
alternative would be 1, but we leave the former runs on the board as is. the shuffle isn't a massive time save and runs without the wolf 2 rank up skip can still be beaten, but it's harder. From an enjoyment route, I would definitely appreciate that I don't have to worry about shuffling out the wolf 2 fight. it means my last shot HAS to be done with the stinger and not sniper etc..

about the hind fight, crazy find! Kinda indifferent if this counts as all bosses defeated or not, not being able to use GME makes the game "harder" again in that we have to actually play well now. GME is just a free ticket for a fast time in hind.

so ye, I bow to the community decision, don't care strongly either way.

I mean you can kill the Hind with GME and equip PSG1 to remove GME and then suicide, it's the same, it's just slightly faster to not go GME at all because then you don't have to remove it

Thanks for clarification

I voted #2 btw, Pazzo. Let them both be allowed.