LMAO

This mod rocks, as it make the PC version the best for me at all, the 360 movement is massive improvement to the gameplay itself, its pretty much the reason why I prefer speedrunning console over PC.

However as much as I love this mod, I'm gonna have to vote against it. 100%

like as it already has been mentioned, It affect the gameplay in a significant way which is Big No for me. (Wolf fights are good example as this mod will make the fight a hella a lot easier then before)

I'll vote for allowing it

My point wasn't that "oh, we did it for the music, so everything is fair game." Even running the PC version without disks took some modification of the code, and is in fact required for most runners here to play the game at all.

My point there is that we have already accepted code modification as acceptable practice, and thus, code modification should not be the sole basis for disqualification, but rather, as is currently being debated, the advantage conferred on the player.

Plus if I'm understanding right, there was already evidence of coding for analog in there. Just not activated properly due to idiot devs or whatever. bmn just tweaked it so it actually worked. (Correct me if I am wrong, I am not a coder, only a tester).

There is a line that should be drawn for code modification. This is not it. This is gaining a (presumably) intended feature that is present on all other versions of the game. Not giving it some PC exclusive feature such as GME, etc.

I was previously against this but after reading people's thoughts I don't see an issue with having it. It should be a variable imo and if you care about who got the record without it just use filters

I was on the fence about it before, reason being is I wanted to see it from the perspective of runners who had competitive times. So far in reference to that, I am more convinced that allowing it would be the best option going forward.

i really have no additional reasons to add to why im also against this given reasons above by wood jag and biggu. this port (at least according to the manual shared in the discord) had the microsoft sidewinder gamepad in mind. which had no analogue, a few face buttons and 2 triggers. until now "360" on this version was only achievable in FPV movement or the auto aim at enemies.

That being said if the vote allows this and we go for a variable we can just remove turbo on PC and replace it with analogue in the name of cleanliness right?

Just a thought here in regards to the controller thing Glenn mentioned not saying im right but my guess would be that when this port was made which was what like 2000, there were probably little to no full native controllers for pc that had analogue sticks on them the 360 wasnt around at this time which would have been the first real MS modern native controller with sticks to work on pc with no adapter just straight USB. Now i could be wrong i have little info on this i just thought id give my thoughts on that topic specifically feel free to say im wrong etc if others have better info

@MetalGlennSolidMetalGlennSolid

So... because PC/Console/EMU is a sub category, it's a no go for a variable. It's the same situation with DuckStation EMU runs. We mandate SDS or FDS in the description since if we added a variable, it would apply to all categories. There is no way to isolate it with the current setup.

So if we add an Analog variable, it would appear on Console and EMU. Description mandate is the way to go. Blame SRDC.

(I just tested this on another game I moderate to make sure)

Most modern computers we use with the launcher don't even support serial port though, so I feel like that point is irrelevant. Most (if not all) runners of this game use the launcher if I'm not mistaken, with a USB controller. If the port was made with a serial port controller in mind and we're using USB, I feel like that point is irrelevant. We should just be able to use the full functionality of our USB pads that the launcher allows. If the og build is inaccessible and essentially unplayable, and using a serial port pad is also, then we should think in mind with what the launcher allows us to do, so long as it's not going to extreme lengths of modification like the Boba/PAL rng manipulation for example. That would be straight up editing lines of code in the game. Again, this launcher option just points to a line of code that already exists and is allowing it to work again.

With the advantages of analog this would be unfair to runners who prefer keyboard (the default controller for PC). I vote against it

I can understand some of the contention about allowing the use of this patch but personally I am in favor of allowing it. Of course, the community will need to thoroughly test and evaluate the patch before coming to a decision but here are my thoughts:

I would prefer to see analog controls allowed as part of the standard ruleset for all PC categories. Ideally, I'd like to see a solution where runners are free to choose whichever input method they prefer and include an option similar to turbo in MGS2 to indicate whether you used analog or 8-way movement when submitting a run for PC. In my opinion, I don't think introducing analog movement warrants having a separate category simply because of a few minor time saves spread out across a run.

This is a much-needed quality of life improvement that would make the PC version even more polished than it already is thanks to bmn's continuous effort over the years. Allowing analog would make the PC version more accessible to potential runners who may have difficulties with using a d-pad or avoided running the PC version altogether due to the lack of analog controls. Allowing it would lead to a better overall experience on PC, which I believe would be a positive development for the game itself and this community.

Even with the slight advantages analog has over d-pad that we know about (general movement, PSG1 aim), achieving a good time on PC will still require a decent level of skill, a deep understanding of the game, successful execution, as well as good RNG. Simply switching from d-pad to analog does not break the game wide open and cause existing runs to become instantly obsolete or make the current records 'free' by any means. But who knows, just like we saw with Boba skip maybe there could be a small possibility that allowing analog controls eventually offers us an opportunity to uncover new strategies and optimizations, potentially leading to future PC runs becoming more diverse and interesting. In my opinion, these factors are quite literally what makes speedrunning fun and exciting in the first place.

With that being said, I understand why some runners might be against allowing analog controls since they would directly impact already existing runs but rather than viewing this as an unfair advantage or a threat to our current runs, I think we should look at this as an opportunity to potentially breathe new life into the PC categories. Introducing analog controls could entice other runners new and old by offering some more friendly competition with the possibility to optimize the game even further and add longevity to the game.

If the main reason to oppose this patch is that we should not allow direct modifications of the game's original code, the premise of this argument completely falls apart due to the fact we've already been doing this. I would argue that using bmn's launcher in any shape or form, even without this patch, results in playing a modified version of the game, regardless of how minor the modifications are or what gameplay impact they may or may not have. Many runners also use the oxide-NL version which itself is an unofficial fan-made patch. Some might even consider the GOG version to fall under this same category and I highly doubt anyone wants to resort to running this game on the original CD-ROM release, but I digress.

I'm sure most of us can agree that allowing more invasive code modifications that manipulate or eliminate RNG, alter guard patterns etc. should never be considered, however, I don't think it's reasonable to assume that if we decide to allow analog controls, we're at risk of opening the flood gates to more significant changes that could result in the collapse of the game's integrity.

There are many other successful speedrunning communities that make use of their own patched versions of the game with some even being dubbed the 'Speedrun Edition' which include bug fixes & enhancements which were approved by the community to make the game more stable & enjoyable to play without compromising the integrity of the speedrun. I'm not saying we should blindly follow the path of other communities simply because it worked out for them, but I do think that the proposed change to add analog seems like a reasonable QoL enhancement to create additional parity between PC & console versions of the game and I think we should consider changes such as these on a case-by-case basis.

Ultimately this is a community decision and whether or not others share the same opinion I hope we can all approach this with an open mind and come to a fair solution.

Currently testing a remade set of patches which:

- Splits the diagonals support and analogue support into separate patches, so the user can choose to enable/disable the analogue part specifically

- Completely changes the method used to achieve analogue support.
-- The old method recreated how the original code would have calculated movement angle, and manually set PSG1 speed separately
-- The new method reactivates the original instructions, and feeds it the appropriate axis inputs. All of the analogue logic is now performed by instructions that were already in the game.

This changes a couple of things that have been stated previously in this topic - off the top of my head:

- The stinger now has analogue controls (along with first person view and first person movement).
- You can continue moving at the start of Tank Hanger when receiving the call in the vent.

Some light testing has been done on the new analogue controls, and every edge case so far (including one where you can move more quickly at the start of M1 Tank) has been found to be console-accurate.

Also, if using launcher version 1.3.2, be aware that the Numpad Weapon Hotkeys patch has a bug that can easily invalidate runs. Disable it or update the launcher to 1.3.3 to avoid this.

-- The new method reactivates the original instructions, and feeds it the appropriate axis inputs. All of the analogue logic is now performed by instructions that were already in the game.

This is quite huge, and further validates this should definitely be a thing. Great work bmn.

Further proving the point that this was intended to be this way. Sweet work BMN

Hi all,

Thanks for the discussion on the topic. This is an update about the results so far. Keep in mind that you must have a public full-game run on this leaderboard when this thread was created for your vote to count. Discussion is of course welcome from those who do not.

Here are the results so far. These are compiled from here, the MGSR discord, and DMs from those who do not want to be public but are verified runners of the game. These results can be verified by the other moderators. If I missed anyone or misconstrued your position, please let me know!

Yes: @VolcanicAkuma55VolcanicAkuma55, @TheoryuKTheoryuK, @dlimes13dlimes13, @SetharooniSetharooni, @Hau5testHau5test, @ShardOfKingdomsShardOfKingdoms, @VermillionNoelVermillionNoel, @OkamikazeOkamikaze, @CarigsCarigs, @SolidTonySolidTony, @LimeLime Meringue, @Will0H, @Jayy93Jayy93, @repeatzzzzzrepeatzzzzz (14)

No: @PlywoodPlywood, @TromboncinoTromboncino, @SoapySamSoapySam, @Jaguar_KingJaguar_King, @MetalGlennSolidMetalGlennSolid, @PeterAfroPeterAfro, @flynamixflynamix, Anonymous Runner 1 (8)

Abstain: @iLL_PazzoiLL_Pazzo (1)

Until feedback is provided from the remaining moderators, we will hold from making any decisions about the subject.

EDIT: As far as timeline, I'd like to resolve the question by early January. It's a pretty busy time of year for people, so it may take some time for people to respond.

"Keep in mind that you must have a public full-game run on this leaderboard when this thread was created for your vote to count."

Why the restriction? And why do the MGSR discord and anonymous votes count? Isn't this related to the board of the website we are on now? Technically, I had runs posted prior to the creation of this thread, but deleted them since I wasn't happy with MGSR's involvement on this board and the other MG games boards. The gatekeeping is just completely unnecessary, are you afraid that new runners will completely shit on the idea of banning analog?

"Site staff wants game moderators to evaluate the consensus of their community and to handle gray cases for the game's community."

From SRDC themselves. Sorry guys, if you don't have a run submitted prior to 4 days ago (for reasons that are entirely at your own discretion and no one can fault or shame you for), you are not a part of this community.

I 100% agree with this Snow.

Actually howling at you manipulating votes once again Plywood. You have taken into account votes from non runners multiple times in the past when it supported the position you wanted

I threw my vote in so I could see you do this in real time and get a laugh out of it