bmn released a new version (1.3) of the Metal Gear Solid Integral Launcher. You can learn more about the entire changelog here: https://www.speedrun.com/mgs1/thread/0m0pb

Up for discussion is whether or not to allow the following change:
"Native Analogue & Diagonal Controls - full native support for analogue
stick controls and d-pad diagonals, without the need to use a mapping tool
such as AntiMicro[X] or DS4Windows."

As originally shipped from Digital Dialect, support for 360 degree analog wasn't included. In addition, the bug where diagonals can get stuck in movement unless you add a direction first (i.e. down+right versus down then right together) has been fixed.

Patching/modifying the game in this way and allowing it on the speedrun boards requires further discussion, testing and consensus before implementation. This is because it fundamentally changes how the PC version is played and opens up strategies previously locked to the PlayStation version.

I've yet to test this patch myself, so I cannot comment on how it lines up with the console run. Here are a handful of places where analog makes a difference on console, based on recollection:

1. general movement (most obviously seen in Canyon)
2. Miller call in Tank Hangar (no need to frame perfect hit select)
3. Sniper Rifle Aim (relevant for the Wolf fights)
4. Camo Guards in Tower B elevator (enables you to angle yourself early)
5. Cargo Elevator fight (initial movement timing changes)

Before any vote for adding PC analog to the boards, discussion can occur here. If there is a clear consensus that it should be added to the boards, the question then becomes how. Regardless of whether or not you support the measure, I'd appreciate it if you'd say how you prefer it being added.

This is my take - assuming that analog functions as it should and doesn't break the game...

I have mixed feelings about having this on the board, due to it making a significant modification from the game as shipped. Most features of the launcher were ways to make certain things that you could already adjust via file explorer or other programs (core affinity, save files, etc.) easier for the end user. The fact that the game didn't ship with analog is what it is. If the GOG port fixed this or packaged bmn's launcher with their release, I would have no problem with this at all. Unofficial modification of game code is a different matter.

As long as people are aware that we are really making MGS1 PC: Speedrun edition and are no longer playing MGS1 PC by Digital Dialect, then it's whatever. Through the work of people like bmn and oxide-NL, the game we play has changed compared to a raw CD-ROM run.

Any modifications beyond creating parity between PC and Console (modifying RNG to get consistent PAL luck or Boba Animation luck) are unacceptable for the main board. I bring this up because we are entering the territory of more significant game modification beyond fixing music files. Those would also be 'quality of life' improvements but further remove what we are playing competitively versus the original release.

I believe that analog should be allowed. While it does involve modification to the game code, we all (in my opinion) accepted the risks entailed in that when we started using bmn's music patch. That said, such things should be handled on a case-by-case basis.

Obviously, using modifications for such things as manipulating RNG should be disallowed and discouraged, but that is not the case here. So far, there's been nothing found to show that analog movement will be of any material difference in this regard, and player skill will still have to be the driving factor behind good times.

Im for allowing the analogue movement, i can see the point about opening the door to more modifications like removing or mitigating rng e.g boba/pal key and i agree those should never be removed/mitigated externally only if someone found a trick ingame. I think most runners would probably agree that those things shouldnt be touched anyway via external mods. For the boards i think just using a filter might be the best way to go not 100% sure but has been mentioned by hau5 and others iirc.

Time save concerns are very minimal. The biggest impact would be Wolf 1/2 for analog. Making the fight easier to track Wolf.

In my beta testing, a typical Any% run would yield around 2 seconds or less of time save. It's not that much. All Bosses yet to be fully determined, but I would wager around 4-5 seconds at MAX (excluding Wolf fights). Fluttering vs. analog is not a gigantic difference.

Points 2 and 4 in your post do not apply, as these do not work with the analog patch. Both were brought up during beta testing, and could not be implemented at this time.

Fixing of RNG via modifying code such as Boba RNG or PAL is a no go always in my book. This is nowhere near that.

My official vote: Allow, make a variable if you really want to (makes board more messy).
Separation of categories is pointless, since the time save is not very much.

It's not like Trom's EZ Any% WR of 34:42 is magically a 34:2x just with analog. It's not that big.

IIRC: Music patch technically modifies game code. So, we are already modifying it. Minor, but still a mod. Same with this.

Hi Ply, I'll cover a couple of the things you mentioned.

---

"the bug where diagonals can get stuck in movement unless you add a direction first (i.e. down+right versus down then right together) has been fixed."

I believe this is the case, I don't recall having a problem with that when using patch on d-pad. It may be a keyboard movement thing, in which case, yes. The diagonals in patch are gamepad movement mapped to d-pad, with the main change being that diagonals OR their movement to the corresponding cardinal directions (i.e. UR will activate all three inputs, U/UR/R).

---

"2. Miller call in Tank Hangar (no need to frame perfect hit select)"

This is same as on unpatched PC, Snake stops on receiving the call.

---

"3. Sniper Rifle Aim (relevant for the Wolf fights)"

This is correct.

Unpatched PC aim is the same as console d-pad aim - speed 1 for a period, then speed 3. The 4 possible speeds on analogue when moving are 0 (lean, no movement), 1 (slow), 2 (medium) and 3 (fast), based on highest axis value.

Patched PC d-pad is unchanged, analogue matches console analogue, except for perhaps how far you have to move the stick to get each speed (obviously this is open to interpretation depending on different PC gamepads and mapping setups).

The actual direction of movement is 8-way on every version of the game, regardless of whether you're using analogue or not.

Other first-person stuff, including e.g. stinger, is unchanged. This might be incorrect behaviour, but if so the difference is less obvious.

---

I've got no horse in this and don't really want to get into a rules discussion, but I'm happy to answer technical questions if need be.

ianb

I know I asked you this and limes mentioned it above, but just to clarify for the purposes of this thread: The music patch DOES modify the code, right?

Yes, it jumps to some additional custom instructions shortly before sending the request to the music player, that looks at the game state (progress flags, location etc.) and overwrites the codenumber for which track to play if necessary, then jumps back to the original set of instructions.

The newest version also has a simple numeric edit to change the hard-coded fade in from 500ms to 0ms.

Changing the music obviously has nothing to do with gameplay of course. But all of the patches, including the ones previously in the launcher, do modify the game executable's behaviour in some way, whether it be changing a single number somewhere, jumping over an unwanted set of instructions in the original, or outright adding new behaviour.

I’m for allowing analog controls on PC. As a new-ish runner for both MGS1 and MGS2, I was not around for the initial implementation of the use of rapid-fire in MGS2, now I can’t imagine a world without it on PC, it fundamentally changed the way we ran the game, from discovering easier ways to achieve ladder glitch, boss fights like Harrier and vamp 1, and minor things like skipping codecs and cutscenes more fluently without mashing. Implementing analog on MGS1, while yes, the code was altered in a way to allow such a thing, is only allowing the use of a feature found in the original PlayStation release of the game. This is nowhere near the magnitude of difference Turbo made to MGS2. Runs on D-Pad will not be obsoleted with this change, as stated above by another runner, the time save is not drastic in most areas. A good time has and will always be achieved by great execution, knowledge of the game and a little RNG. And while yes, pre-set pal and boba animations would be nice, most of us as a community would agree to never allow such a thing.

This mod basically turns the movements to how they were supposed to be from the start, and I believe it's a straight up improvement to the game.

However, we are in a speedrun environment here, and I believe that any mod that allows for anything that isn't already possible to do in the original copy of the game in a way or another should straight out be banned, as I see it as a cheating tool.

For this specific case, the mod would allow the player to have small advantages in multiple rooms, and straight out new strategies that were not possible before in others.

Here's a list of rooms that get fundamentally changed on a speedrun approach, as long the 360° movements keeps the same properties found in the PS1 versions:

0) Overall faster rooms

1) Tank Hanger: It's possible to keep crawling while Miller calls you
2) Tank Hanger: Entering the elevator without a chaff becomes possible on EZ
3) Armory Sth: It's possible to reposition during the cutscene
4) Canyon: Chaffless stunlock on the Tank becomes available
5) Cmnder Rm: Picking up the Nikita ammunition on EX without getting spotted becomes much doable
6) Lab: On Phase 3 Ninja it becomes much more doable to reach any spot before the Ninja starts to move on EX
7) Canyon (after PSG1 pickup): It's possible to avoid the gun camera delayed shots by taking a very narrow oblique line
8 ) Nuke Building 1: Throwing the chaff to distract the guard on the left side becomes much more doable on EX
9) U.Grnd Pssge: The PSG1 scope can be used at full speed from the start, allowing the player to shoot before being shot back (EX) and an overall easier fight
10) Canyon: Same as point 7
11) Nuke Building 1: Same as point 8
12) Roof/Comm Twr: Stinger movement becomes much more precise and as a result, some trick shots become much more easier to do
13) Snowfield: Same as Wolf1
14) Spply Rte: Some tricky angles become available while throwing Liquid

TL;DR: Very good mod, but gives an unfair advantage compared to the original game, therefore I see it as cheating and I would not allow it. However, If it were to be allowed, I'd like to see it separated from the already existing runs or at least give it an extra check to mark the usage of external 360° movement, like the already existing Turbo.

1 Tank Hanger: Does not apply to this patch. Doesn't work.
2 Tank Hanger: You can already do this. Difficulty dependent, and/or if you quick rise.
Other various points untested, or I agree it would be easier.

Cheating is a very strong word. But a variable is the best (even if messy) solution if enough people wanted it. I personally don't like the variables for stuff like this, as it's messy. Similar to EMU runs listing the DuckStation version and SDS/FDS in your description. If you want to keep the boards clean, mandate it in your description.

Separation is would be quite dumb IMO. More categories for a small time save. PC is already in it's own world.

People's runs got shafted for Turbo on X, saving a bunch of time for codecs. We didn't separate then. Just did a variable. Same for SDS/FDS for emulator. A ton of legacy runs left in the dust since it was a new age. But for a much larger time save difference. Those were dollars. These are pennies.

this patch fixes the PC version what the original devs couldn't accomplish
My vote is to allow it.

I don't get why they disabled the analog movements in the final release but anyway. Personally I don't really care, but there might be a way it was disabled because it can cause crashes or non-desired glitches/bugs, time and tests will say that. But if devs took time to disable this I'd say there might be a good reason. So it has to be tested over and over on multiple runs before it's allowed imo. The only problem I have with that is I have the feeling that the game is getting "modded" more and more through time. At first with F7 but it's only on VE so we could say it's kind of a "meme category". But as I did read above, the code was already modified with music so I guess it's not a point anymore. I abstain from voting, I let you guys decide.

I would like to point out that the slippery slope take is kind of ludicrous, I'm sure every runner of MGS1 would agree that consistent Boba or PAL RNG would not be QoL but just completely cheating.

As for the mod itself I believe it should be allowed. Most areas fall in line with PC D-pad even with analog movement (Cannot continue moving during miller codec, movement delay when going from Medi Room to Cell) in the areas where it does not, it falls in line with Console, therefore this is a perfect implementation of the analog in games.
Also nobody's been playing MGS1 PC by Digital Dialect since it released because it doesn't freaking run on anything. Why should we worry so hard about strictly adhering to the unfinished half-cooked version of the game, when it was clearly made as fast as possible with literally no quality assurance.
I welcome all patches that fix MGS1 PC, all this will do is lower the skill floor and raise the skill ceiling. I don't care whos version of MGS1 I play, as along as its a good speed-run that isn't going to crash, soft-lock, or have broken music every 15 seconds.

Edit: Also I'm unsure on how to moderate it but I do not want to see any board splits.

Im all for allowing analog, my reasoning is when i used to run this game i had issues with my hands when going for multiple runs a day because of feathering. This is a great QOL change and i would like to see it implemented in runs. As for the implementation, the least i would accept is an option to select whether you used it or not similar to turbo in mgs2.

@iLL_PazzoiLL_Pazzo

This is speculation, but I think they simply did not plan for analog support due to when it was released and all the challenges of converting the game from PSX. Worth remembering as well that a fair number of people at that time didn't play MGS1 on console with analog sticks.

If you look at the original readme, it does mention game controller issues with a handful of gamepads, including the Microsoft SideWinder Precision Pro, SideWinder Force Feedback, and SideWinder Dual Strike. The former 2 being joysticks more so for flight sims. As far as Logitech, only thing I could find at the time was the Logitech Thunderpad Digital with no analog support.

----
As far as 'we already modified the music, therefore it's fine,' music modification only adjusts music cues, it doesn't provide any gameplay benefit. The only way I could see that being true is if someone edited the Colosseo or Blast Furnace tracks to have a click track or beep when the card is done freezing/warming. That would be cheating.
----
I haven't booted up my CD-ROM copy in some time, but it at least worked in compatibility mode on WIN 7. No idea about WIN 10/11. Naturally, I don't think anyone expects people to run the original CD-ROM .ISO. That shipped sailed a long time ago.

There's a chance I may be misunderstanding the code (Ghidra occasionally misses things out, which doesn't help), but there's this big, complicated section that sets the 3rd person movement angle in 3 different ways (including a true analogue method) based on input...

...and then it immediately runs about 5 lines of code that overwrite the angle with a simple digital solution.

So it may be they were trying to make full inputs work, had problems, and ended up hastily patching the angle selection code up with something they knew worked.

Edit: Looking at it more closely, it looks like it's trying to reproduce the console behaviour where you have a digital-only mode, and a digital+analogue mode. I only checked briefly, but it doesn't seem to actually reach the point of running the code for either mode, it just goes straight to the simpler bit at the end.

https://pastebin.com/VS1vg8Vv

I am 100% for allowing Analog

Looking at analog movement as some sort of gateway drug to allowing full blown cheating is a really lame argument.

Analogue is the future. +1 to allowing

I know the team who ported this game were underfunded but they still had more time and money than BMN in his bedroom at 4am on a weekend

What a legend m8