Metal Gear Solid Forum  /  Integrating Emulator into Console
  PlywoodPlywood
(edited: )

In the goal of making the boards less messy, I want to join EMU with Console. I've done some tests to help in researching this.

There are several questions that need to be addressed: what kinds of rules should be in place for Emulator runs? Should Emulator be filtered on or off by default? Should an Emulator run include the entire window? Are there any other (accurate) emulators to consider?

Any and all Emulator runs already verified would be grandfathered in, however new EMU runs must be done on one of the following:

ePSXe 2.0.5
Bizhawk 2.2 (or latest version)
Mednafen 0.9.48 (or latest version)

NOTE: The Disc loads are the US version, NOT Integral like the Emulator loads. The Disc loads are for comparison purposes in a general sense. The Integral intro may be slower, even on the same model number of PS2.

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  [user deleted]

Rules for emu:
Use of the specified ones above (or if just one w/e is the most accurate to PS1)

I don’t think it should be auto filtered off, if the boards use a fair and accurate emulator, since emu is generally more accurate, it alienates people from the boards who can’t capture console/don’t have access to console

 
  RallisRallis

Just want to give my opinions on two of these questions real quick:

1. "Should Emulator be filtered on or off by default?"
I think this depends on whether emu has an advantage or disadvantage, if it has a disadvantage (Which seems to be the case from the end of the load test video) then there shouldn't be any harm in allowing it to be shown on the boards by default.

2. "Should an Emulator run include the entire window?" I think this depends on whether or not it's easy to tell if someone is playing on a banned emu, if it is then there wouldn't be a need to show the entire window. If you decide not to require showing the entire emu window, then you should probably at least make a rule saying that runners need to specify what emu they played on.

 
  PlywoodPlywood

Emu's advantage comes from a more 'easily accessible' Integral, more or less.

 
  RallisRallis

By "Advantage" I meant "Is it faster than console", I'm not entirely sure about the differences of Integral but I'm going to assume that it's the faster version. If Integral played on emu is still slower than Integral played on console then I think it should still be fine to show them by default.

 
  tomma16tomma16

I have no issue with emulator and console merging. I also wouldn't have an issue with the times being shown instead of hidden by default.

It's proven that emulators only advantage is that integral is easy to get but aslong as you have a ps2 with fast disc speed then an emulator can't compete with top times.

The main reason I think it would help the community is that emulators or very accessible and it will encourage new runners to try speedrunning this game and not feel like they are secluded into a separate category because they can't get access to the console needed to run the game.

And this is coming from someone with a lot of time put into the emulator category! Running emulator encouraged me to actually go out and buy all the hardware needed to achieve the best times possible and I hope it can encourage other people to do so too.

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  PlywoodPlywood
(edited: )

I feel pretty comfortable moving forward on this; I have already changed the rules regarding emulator submission. However, I will give the merger a few days so people can respond and discuss. If people have concerns, questions, comments, now is the time to voice them!

Here is the rule change -

For Emulator: You must run one of the following emulators and SPECIFY in your description which you used, or your submission will be rejected.

ePSXe 2.0.5
Bizhawk 2.2 (or latest version)
Mednafen 0.9.48 (or latest version)

If you want to run a different emulator, it must be submitted for approval regarding accuracy.

 
  Tyler2022Tyler2022

I think emulator should be combined with console. Would make the boards look a lot better. Just need to pay attention on what emulators are being used. Make sure that none of the inaccurate emulators are being accepted.

 
  TromboncinoTromboncino

I think these 3 emulators need a guide for their settings, since (at least ePSXe, never really tried the others) they work differently with different setups.

 
  [user deleted]

Is there no guides online? I think it’s a bit out of the way to ask someone to write a guide on how to use an emu 😛

 
  PlywoodPlywood
(edited: )

The default settings are the way to go. Obviously no save/load states during gameplay, overclocking, etc.

As far as getting the emulators to work, Bizhawk has a FAQ, as well as ePSXe. Mednafen has the highest barrier to entry out of the three.

 
  DrakodanDrakodan

I agree with just specifying which emulators are to be used and limiting submissions to those ones only. Many other games follow this method effectively, and as far as I know there's nothing specifically about Metal Gear Solid that would make it an exception to this rule.

 
  [user deleted]
(edited: )

also integral disc load on SDS is 14 seconds. 10s on FDS

Edited cos I rechecked number it’s 10s on a PS2 w/ FDS. checked both 50k and 90k.

 
  PlywoodPlywood

That depends on the PS2/PS1 Raichu

 
  [user deleted]
(edited: )

not the place to discuss it, but it doesn’t, Ive checked Sephy and Tomma & both on different PS2’s both load in at 10s. (I double checked and it’s 14s for a PS1) 4 longer than US MGS1.

 
  TromboncinoTromboncino

My idea was to set up precise settings for each emulator so everyone can use the same setup and have the same emulation as the others.
I'm saying this because I noticed that Tekken 3's loading times were shortened on ePSXe depending on plugins and settings used for them.
If we can use whatever settings we want on each emulator listed I'll just try them out and use the fastest options available.

 
  PlywoodPlywood

I see what you mean, ePSXe players should only use ePSXe GPU core 2.0, not Pete's OpenGL. Bizhawk should be the default settings.

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  OdinsfallOdinsfall
(edited: )

My 2 cents on category stuff:
Console and emu together is fine because emu is just a cheapman's console and worse, it still runs the same game and has the same rules/timing etc. which is a fair consequence for not running on proper hardware. PS3 also falls under this category because it emulates PSX games.

Having access to Integral is not an advantage, well it shouldn't be because it's literally a different version of the game. However, it actually is an advantage and might as well be a requirement because it's put in the same category as NA - this is where I have a problem.

Integral has around 3 minutes free advantage from the skippable cutscenes before Liquid, I don't know of anything else that may make it faster but it wouldn't surprise me if there's more - not that you need to know/care if it was a separate category to begin with.

3 minutes free is HUGE in runs as short as this game, I haven't spoken about it until now because I didn't really care enough to make a fuss, since you're going about some leaderboard revamps, I figured this is as good as any time to bring it up.

I think you should consider the relevancy of categories than simply grouping anything possible to try save space and mess. I mean, think about trying to compare a NA PS2 run to an emu Integral run, that gives me a headache just thinking about it.
You made the effort here to research load times which I respect and I like that you have asked for opinions on the matter.

My suggestion: separate Integral and NA, combine console and emu if you want to. Having emu in a separate category isn't bad either but it is definitely the first merge to consider if mess is a concern. My runs are pretty irrelevant because of this change + the current Integral/NA situation, so I'll be removing them. Don't worry I'm not salty, I just want them to be relevant for comparison to other times. Hopefully for future submissions (me and others) this won't be a problem.

Cheers.

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  ReigentsuReigentsu

I agree with Odinsfall and I would like you to consider the Emu category again to have a little order on the leaderboard

 
  PlywoodPlywood
(edited: )

@Aizawa you have yet to make a compelling argument why Emu should be separated. If people do want to look at a certain console (emulator, PS2, PS1, etc.), that's what the filter option is for. PS2 FDS being the fastest is just a reality of running most PS games. I can only think of a handful of games that EMU provides similar results or some advantage (Silent Hill, Mega-Man Legends 1) over console, and this is not one of those situations. If it's to have first place, that's not a good reason to change it back.

@Odinsfall I appreciate you taking the time to make this point, and it's one brought up to me in the past as well. Both from people who run the game and those who don't have asked about this separation. My main issue with separating Integral from vanilla is that the 2.5 minute time save comes purely from a cutscene. There are some cosmetic changes (a few bug fixes irrelevant to the speedrun), a new difficulty (not on the boards due to no score screen), and little additions (pocketstation functionality, ENG dub, VR on disc 3, Alternate Round, etc.). If someone can point to a significant gameplay difference between Integral and Vanilla, I'd be happy to take a look at it. Until then (using your example) NA PS2 is quite comparable to EMU Integral.

I'm not a big fan of how the filtering system is set up on SRDC, but it's there for people who want more exact comparisons between versions. When I start running Integral, my US runs will still be on the boards under that region for people to compete with.

In the end, having a 2.5 minute time save is important for having the fastest times possible in MGS1. This is true, but good gameplay will win out until a certain point.

P.S. I don't consider anyone's runs irrelevant in terms of the version they play on.