Hello all,

Due to the fact that the issue in question involves moderators from games across the series (Solid 1, Solid 2, Solid 3, V, VR1, VR2, etc.), this thread is being posted here as it would implicitly affect many leaderboards.

It is recommended that you read the Moderator rules for SRC here: https://www.speedrun.com/knowledgebase/moderation-rules

TheLightningStrikes, a runner for Metal Gear Solid 2 Substance and Metal Gear Solid 2 Substance Category Extensions (CE), removed 2 runs from the leaderboards, with the explicit desire of them not to be relisted: a 1:03:53 Very Easy PC time, 22nd (as of post), and a Tanker (Blindfolded) IL, 3rd (as of post). They were relisted by edboi and dlimes13, respectively as Anonymous times with no video and the following description - "This run was previously verified and on the board with video proof, however the runner has decided to remove the run. For reasons of board accuracy, we have decided to add the run as anonymous."

When Lightning reached out to dlimes, he refused her request to remove these runs from the leaderboard, citing leaderboard accuracy and the above rules page. According to him, the rules under the subsection "The following rules will be strictly enforced:" means he has the right to repost the runs as Anonymous, even if the runner in question does not want that. There was no discussion among the entire mod team for MGS2 Substance, as supermod Brakk0n was not aware of this situation at the time.

Lightning then reached out to Brakk0n with her situation, responding that he had a run taken down THROUGH anonymity a year ago by PlatonicGuy, a moderator for both Substance and CE. This began a larger conversation within the MGSR discord among SRC mods, and taken here.

While TheLightningStrikes reaches out to site staff for clarification about these rules, it is due diligence that the speedrunners on these leaderboards get to decide whether or not this is acceptable for the series in general.

Therefore, the question is the following:

"If a runner who was previously on the leaderboard requests that their times are taken down, even through Anonymity, should that request be honored?"

Regardless of the outcome from SRC staff, we must decide together as a group the above question. It cannot be left to moderators, as moderators must represent a consensus.

----

I will present my perspective as a series mod and an MG runner for 5 years. Disclaimer: I am currently in a relationship with Lightning. However, the facts of the case are what is relevant, as this could happen to anyone within the community.

Based on my interpretation of the rules, I do not think moderators have the ability to post runs through anonymity against request. Nor do I think the full game Very Easy run qualifies as a 'top' time, per the bulletpoint in question. There are other runs that have been reposted as Anonymous for the same reason above, but I have no awareness of explicit statements from those runners against Anonymous reposting. You can find two examples here: https://www.speedrun.com/mgs1/run/yjg85j3y and https://www.speedrun.com/mgs2sub/run/y9963ovy . I await site staff for clarification.

Even so, I think it goes against the spirit of community to disregard the requests of a runner to maintain 'leaderboard accuracy.' While I am a leaderboard moderator, I do not think the leaderboard is the end all be all for speedrunning. It is part of a larger whole, and should be taken into consideration with the needs, values and desires of the community.

A runner should have the agency to say that any element of their running history can be removed. Reposting runs as "Anonymous" in this case is anonymity in name only, not true anonymity. To remove a runner's agency ignores that the root of a leaderboard is the runner! Regardless of the reason, we should honor their request.

In short, the runners make the community and the leaderboard possible, therefore honoring their wishes should be done.

If she wishes to have the time taken down, I see no reason not to honour that request. It's only common decency. Even in its "anonymous" form, it can be traced back to her, ESPECIALLY now that this has become such a big public discussion.
Also "Do not list a player's runs on a leaderboard if they explicitly do not want it listed." says enough doesn't it? Video or not, and anonymous or not, it's her run that lead to the time, and she does not want it listed, so it shouldn't be.

If someone really cares that much about "leaderboard accuracy", please also put in the needed time to track down and register all times ever set, including random Youtube playthroughs and speedruns uploaded to sites outside of Youtube like Niconico

Hi, I do not understand why it is even being brought up. Someone wishes their run deleted and to disassociate themselves from the community and that is a wish that has to be respected without question.

Neither src or mgsr own the runs and it's 100% people's right to decide that for whatever reason they don't want their time to be shown on a leaderboard anymore, be it anonymously.

I do think this should also apply to wr tier runs regardless of board accuracy. As seriously as people may take it, speedrunning is a hobby people partake in and not a high stakes sports competition. It is just a game, and it should not take precedence over the people that play it.

After looking at Lightning's statement and the rules given to justify why the runs were reinstated anonymously, I do agree that the runs should be fully off of the leaderboard as per their request. It might be just me but I think that the rules stating "Do not list a player's runs on a leaderboard if they explicitly do not want it listed" and "It is also acceptable to list a top time with the username "Anonymous" and no video linked" conflict in some ways. Especially with a case as high profile as this even a completely anonymous run could still be traced back to the runner and thus violating the rule of not having their runs on the leaderboard if they request it.

I do value board accuracy but in an instance like this I believe that the runner's will usurps that.

The rules are crystal clear, and so is GDPR, if a runner wishes for their runs to be removed they need to be removed.

There's no discussion necessary, except for whether moderator that choose not to respect those rules, and beyond that the human decency of just fulfilling somone's personal request regarding their run and therefor their property should remain moderators.
The ownership of the run and everything attached to this run including the run time is and remains within the ownership of Lighty and when they explicitly choose for it to be removed this should occur without question.

The fact the runs weren't removed until confirmed that the current interpretation of the rules is even the correct one is allready problematic enough. The run should be removed ASAP in my opinion.

That rule also has further exceptions as outlined here: https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/archives-sector/legislation/archives-data-protection-law-uk/gdpr-faqs/#:~:text=The%20%E2%80%9Carchiving%20in%20the%20public,request%20by%20the%20data%20subject.

Either way, obligatory not a lawyer, and the rules are still crystal clear either way. but yes it appears GDPR has some exmptions for archival purposes, except that only applies when the removal of a record directly affects other records in that set and makes them less complete, which in this case does not apply. When the processing of other data does not get affected normal rules still apply.

Quote:
"If complying with a data subject's request to exercise a right would not prevent
or seriously impair the processing purposes, the request must be dealt with
as normal, e.g. by providing a data subject with a copy of their personal data,
adding a supplementary statement to a record or withdrawing from public
access inaccurate historical data at a data subject’s request."

I think the way the SRDC rules are written is causing a lot of confusion, I don't think anything can really be done until they clarify their position of what is acceptable on their website. If they say that anonymous times should be removed, I don't think anyone is looking to fight them on it.

IMO it will just mean the boards here are incorrect and that's really the only purpose this website serves. Communities don't use it for anything else.

For communities as small as us, it's quite easy to do record keeping ourselves. Many people in this community store their own databases, some nerds can even tell you the WR history for our games from memory.

Times are talked about in Discords and on streams and in videos, it's a part of the culture. It can't really be erased. You can only take it off SRDC and that just makes SRDC worse.

As mentioned before in plentiful discussions, SRDC will never be truly accurate so the point is fairly moot. Especially when its directly against the personal wishes of a runner for their runs to be removed for any reason whatsoever.

Record keeping being done off site doesnt mean someones entitlement to their data goes away, any data they personally submitted and is directly tied to them is still their data and is for them to do with as they wish.

The accuracy of a speedrunning leaderboard, which lets remind ourselves, is about video games and not of any actual significant to the world in the grand scheme of things.

When discussing the archival of world war events or such yes, the importance of accuracy argument makes sense for historical purposes. When discussing the achievement for a single person playing a video game somewhat faster than another person its really not significant enough to ignore the personal and emotional aspects of why the person may have wanted the information to be removed in the first place.

The entire mod team seems obsessed with board accuracy while not even giving a single care in the world about the emotional aspect of any of this whatsoever. I understand speedruns are important to a lot of people, but this should never outweight the request for someone to have their information removed when they request it.

Its extremely sad to see it's come to this and the appropriate actions have still not been taken.

I mean, if you think it's cheated, why would you want even the anonymous entry on the board casting doubt?

Starsmiley of SRDC staff has said the following, which closes this case.

https://imgur.com/a/DhoZQ9u

I would appreciate it if you do not harass me on Twitter.

As a moderator for the Metal Gear Solid 2 leaderboards (all 7 of them), I feel I have a responsibility to post something here. This discussion is currently being had in the MetalGearSpeedRunners discord. Personally, I will be continuing my part of the discussion there as I like using Discord more than SRDC's forums (this is NOT me saying others are not entitled to have their say here). I also think I can reach more of the community over there than I can over here.

I will post my general take on the situation here:
I think we should value leaderboard accuracy the most over everything else. Especially more than the feelings of community members. That might sound harsh, but that's where I stand on it. Leaderboards should only be viewed as fancy spreadsheets for documenting verified times.

This means that I believe we should try our hardest to keep boards accurate. It means that should be our number one priority. Are there examples where we and others have failed at this? Sure. Moderating leaderboards is a human proces. Mistakes happen and opinions can change.

If you would like to personally message me, my discord and SRDC DMs are open. Feel free to message me there.

If the runner requests it not be posted or taken down, you are obligated to take it down, even if it's in anonymous form.

We have confirmation that the offending data will be removed shortly. Thank you for your time in this matter.