@quickcuppa That's like sending someone to prison for killing someone even though you have no proof just because they can't prove that they didn't do it. Just because someone can't prove they didn't do something doesn't make them guilty especially if you haven't proved they did do something either.

They actually don’t have proof. It’s all based upon chances of events happening

yeah, surely they don't have proof after literally proving that the chances of dream getting this luck are lower than the chances of earth being inhabitable or maybe the universe even existing, idk, and they made a 29 page document explaining how dream's run can't be legit, so yeah, ''ThEy DoN't HaVe PrOoF''

look, we could debate this in forums until the end of time, but the mods aren't going to change their minds based on any of our opinions, so it's completely pointless.

let's all agree to differ, ok? please stop bringing up dream in this forum.

@MushySR they only took his most lucky streams. If you take all his streams of 1.16 you get way way way higher chances of it happening.

@goldenONX did you not read my last response? we can agree to differ about the fairness of dream' ban, but to quote Khalooody: "Simple sentence: Dream will stay banned here until its proven that he is innocent/didn't cheat." dream's run hasn't been added to leaderboards, therefore he hasn't been proven innocent.

please can everyone stop bringing up dream in this forum, thanks.

To answer most of the concerns very quickly:

1. Why did you ban him before [INSERT EVENT HERE]? For the same reason Java removed his run before [INSERT EVENT HERE]

2. What about innocent until proven guilty? This maybe works in the court of law where we have things like security camera footage and fingerprinting. Unfortunately, if you apply this policy to speedrunning, a huge amount of cheaters would go unpunished as proving cheating (even when its obvious) is impossible in many scenarios.

3. There is no proof! Statistics is proof. It may not be "hard proof", but it is still proof.

About 3: it’s not proof. They just told the chances of the events happening, which is not probability of cheating. Using those statistics is a very very very weak argument in my opinion. But hey you do what you wanna do, apparently banning people before they even ran the game is a thing now.

[QUOTE=goldenONX]apparently banning people before they even ran the game is a thing now.[/QUOTE] I know you're being sarcastic, but this is not uncommon. Look at Mario Kart, FZero (I think), GTA, etc. These are all communities where this kind of stuff happens.

And yes, a 1 in 10,000,000 chance is pretty good proof if you ask me.

You do what you want man

It is very very easy to manipulate and lie with statistics, if you calculate one thing wrong or you don’t know what you are calculating it can make a difference between a 1 in 7,500,000,000,000 chance and a 1 in 100 chance.

@Fredboy "It is very very easy to manipulate and lie with statistics" then how do you know dream's argument isn't also flawed and manipulative, assuming of course you don't have a degree in statistics? "easy to manipulate" what possible reason could the java mod team have to manipulate this data?

I'm going to be blunt: unless you are a java moderator or a qualified statistician, no-one really cares what you have to say on this issue, and your opinion will not in any way impact the ban on dream. I'm sorry if this comes across as rude, but I've said roughly the same thing twice before in this thread now in more polite terms, so i think it's understandable.

for the third time, please stop mentioning dream in this thread. If you disagree with anything regarding dream, then fair enough but there's very little point in voicing your opinion as the decision won't change unless the java mods change their decision. if you really have an issue with dreams ban, go appeal his innocence to the java mod team.

This is a quote from Geosquare, a java moderator, taken from a comment he made on a YouTube video by GTA V speedrunner DarkViperAU, which I feel summarizes and justifies the moderators position well.

"It's unfortunate that this situation is dealing with something most people don't intuitively understand. For your average Joe, this has turned into: at worst a bandwagon based on your biases, or otherwise an unknowable problem only decided by the credentials of each side. However, it does seem that all of the PhD's and statistical experts we have seen or been in contact with have been overwhelmingly supportive of our methodology and conclusions. They say there are demonstrable, concrete flaws in the work of Dream and his statistician.

"To those mathematically inclined people who have not agreed with us or have provided critique, in each case (about three so far) we have discussed the situation with them, provided our response to their claims and each one has left with a changed opinion. This is how scientific consensus is challenged and confirmed. Healthy criticism from the right sources is always great.

"Now as I said, it's difficult for most people to ascertain what evidence to side with, but every qualified opinion I've seen has supported our conclusion so far. For that I believe the mod team and the experts are truly justified since they are the ones with the proper prerequisite understanding. For anyone else as a bystander, I suppose that you are right. It can be just believing one particular side or the other."

Pls no more mentioning Dream.

It's got going to get anything anywhere.

@xRochy I would like to debunk a point you made: "That's like sending someone to prison because the judge just thinks that they committed a crime, when they haven't been proven guilty yet. Also the Bedrock and Java Mod Teams are completely different."

This is actually something that does happen often in real prisons and jails. When an investigation is going on and they find someone they think is likely the person who committed the crime they will put this person in jail and schedule a court meeting. The court meeting is what decides whether the person is guilty or not guilty and if they are proven to be guilty they are put into prison with a specific sentence. Note also that they don't always put people in jail before a court case but they sometimes do for a short time. If they are proven to be innocent they are free to go.

@goldenONX I will also debunk this point you made:

"they only took his most lucky streams. If you take all his streams of 1.16 you get way way way higher chances of it happening"

Well of course you do! Ok for example; if a person has gone to jail for stealing from a store 3 times. Well, you can't take into consideration the other times he went into that store and DIDN'T steal and say that person is innocent because they didn't steal those other times. This same logic can be used with this situation. You can't take streams he didn't cheat in and use them as a means to prove that he didn't cheat in the other streams. He could have easily done a few streams legit then cheated in the streams that have been looked into. You can't add a stream that isn't suspicious when you are trying to find the chances/odds of what Dream got in the suspicious streams or you will end up with false statistics.

@GoldGamer32 Your example has no way to be compared to this. When someone goes in front of a judge he goes to jail because there is CLEAR evidence. When calculating probabilities it is different though. Let’s say I do a speedrun that was very lucky and wanna know what the chances are of it happening again, well then I will take ALL my attempts into consideration.

@goldenONX As Mango said he could have easily just done a few streams legit and then cheated in the other streams. Also my example uses the same logic. The streams that you are talking about aren't suspicious and therefore can not be used to say that he didn't cheat. The suspicious streams are the topics and are what provide the evidence of him cheating. My example isn't directly related to this situation but the logic is what my point is.

@quickcuppa you’re right, I have no say in this situation, now I will sit my pathetic self down and think about what I’ve become.

@quickcuppa you’re right, I have no say in this situation, now I will sit my pathetic self down and think about what I’ve become.