North Carolina, USABecause the glitch doesn't exist in that version??? It isn't a direct port of the game, so many of the glitches just aren't available?????? It's just a different game?????????
Nothing was done surreptitiously, so terms like "cheating" and "shady" seem like needlessly charged language. Firstly, the buttons were not used to double mash, so this easily falls under the standard grey area that controller changes typically get treated with. In fact, we wouldn't be talking about this at all had lively not disclosed it, because things like this are easily hidden. I'm just suggesting that we talk about it objectively and avoid the sort of charged language that maligns him for no reason. He tried something and disclosed it as "accept this if its okay, reject if not".
This is complicated. Controller remapping is a nuanced issue. As I mentioned on the lengthy twitter thread, using any sort of USB controller that doesn't match the shape of the original controller, one-handed controllers, 3rd party controllers, all deal with this issue to one extent or another, obviously way less pronounced than this. Playing on keyboard, which has never been disallowed to my knowledge, deals with this issue.
I do take a bit of issue with the idea of the slippery slope. mcgrew brought up turbo, toad brought up L+R, as if those things are now allowed if buttons remapping is permitted, but we have always had fairly explicit wording forbidding these things in the past.
That all being said, I obviously understand and see the issues being raised. I'm happy to remove the time if this seems to be the consensus of other runners. I personally am indifferent toward it, as I was when I approved the run initially. I know plenty of people who can mash with either hand twice as fast as lively could with his right, so I don't think the WR is now put out of reach for other console runners. But I totally get the concern and I want to make sure that the final decision isn't just one that I made, but what makes sense in general.
You're jumping way too high when you start room 7. Just tap jump. If you jump that high, you're running out an already relatively tight timer. (You're jumping way higher than you want/need to in room 2 as well, but the timer is more forgiving.) Just hold right and tap B.
A leaderboard with more categories makes the game ¤¤less¤¤ competitive (which is more competitive, 10 people on one category or 1 person on each of 10 different categories?) This game is small enough that there really doesn't need to be a lot of misc categories that are run by one person. If more people provide competition, the leaderboard could track them, of course.
I am not opposed to adding level leaderboards, however. Does the game provide an IGT for individual levels? That would be my preference.
It was already done on an unmodified rom of the game. It requires some setup before the speedrun that isn't quite in the spirit of the category, so it won't be on these leaderboards, and there is no small fix that is going to make it magically accepted.
Thank you TLD for that excellent counterpoint. I think all of the SMW RTA speedrunners are grateful and impressed by things that IL runners like you and Lambby have come up with. I guess I don't mean to downplay the value that ILs have even when not applicable to an RTA speedrun, but my criticism was more to do with your point about some levels just not being interesting. If we have a leaderboard for YI2 with Cape, that IL just doesn't make sense.
I think I would support the creation of IL leaderboards on SRC under the condition that everyone could agree on a ruleset that addressed a few points:
- consistent timing (IGT is a notoriously poor choice for Mario games across the board, and maybe the practice cart could solve that problem as you suggested)
- a reduction in modifiers. Small-only leaderboards, like what Lambby has done with his small-only spreadsheet make total sense. Cape makes sense in most cases, with "no cape" devolving back into the same strats as small-only in most cases. How do we handle Yoshi? Pre-/post-special world? Maybe no restriction in that regard and players can just do whichever option gives you the best time?
- clearly delineated thresholds for what is submittable. Again, a great suggestion you had is to go by the gold/pink times on the practice cart. I think some of the pink times were achieved by segmenting the stage to play more or less perfectly (Dots can correct me if I'm wrong) so gold is probably a more realistic goal.
I'm not opposed to ILs for ILs sake. But the way we had them before were messy and they were a stain on the SRC SMW page, with a bunch of random, optimized times claiming world records just because no one else wanted to record a video for YI3 with cape, etc. But you've convinced me, more or less, that I shouldn't just dismiss it outright.
Yes Cape, No Yoshi Yes Cape, Yoshi, Wings Allowed Yes Cape, Blue Yoshi, Wings Allowed Yes Cape, Yoshi, No Wings Yes Cape, Blue Yoshi, No Wings No Cape, No Yoshi No Cape, Yoshi, Wings Allowed No Cape, Blue Yoshi, Wings Allowed No Cape, Yoshi, No Wings No Cape, Blue Yoshi, No Wings Small Mario, No Yoshi Small Mario, Yoshi, Wings Allowed Small Mario, Blue Yoshi, Wings Allowed Small Mario, Yoshi, No Wings Small Mario, Blue Yoshi, No Wings
Strats change considerably after you've finished special world because some of the sprites change. So maybe add that. Do you want glitchless variants? We can do that too. There, I've just given 60 valid variants for each exit.
ILs that don't have a purpose in an actual speedrun are largely pointless, and even if you find value in them, that doesn't put the onus on us to curate that leaderboard. If you'd like to make your own IL leaderboard with a subset of these that you find interesting, go for it bud!
It isn't an issue of them being confusing. It is that they are pointless. If you want to keep track of your best level times, go for it, but maintaining a list of something like 96 exits with something like 10+ variants per exit would be pointless for the mods to handle. It isn't useful for the SMW RTA community, and so we removed it a long time ago.
@16bitPanda it is unclear whether you are being sincere or sarcastic. Would be good if you could clarify
The IL leaderboards are gone because they don't make much sense for SMW. https://www.speedrun.com/post/wdtf9
The run doesn't become void if you game over. Feel free to submit even if it contains a game over.
This topic tends to devolve into a mess, but honestly, I think that you have presented your case in an articulate way and you seem to understand the nuance of the problem, so I think this is a worthwhile discussion.
- The distinction between runs with and without orb originated from the old nicovideo leaderboards, where there were two versions of every category: "orb stock" and "no orb stock". I think there was a natural desire to have only one leaderboard whenever the original western SMW leaderboards first were created, and that, I'd imagine, led to the seemingly arbitrary decision to make "no orb stock" the default.
As to the common arguments against orb: you don't actually end up having to play the level as intended, and that feels like it runs counter to the purpose of the category, but as you've already pointed out, that's kind of an issue with wings as well. I'd like to suggest the following idea: wings are only available in levels which certain conditions are met to allow you to get them quickly enough for them to be useful, whereas orb lets ¤¤you¤¤ choose where to use it, which is perhaps a bigger problem. Furthermore, orb has the potential to crash the game when you obtain it. The item swap is notoriously fickle and rather challenging, whereas wings simply cannot crash the game (though you can get trapped in the infinite bonus game in some cases)
- The decision to include "glitchless" as a variable for the 11-exit leaderboards was to help people find strats for the way they were choosing to run the game, but no one really acknowledges a specific WR for "glitchless" 11-exit versus orb 11-exit versus cloud 11-exit. It's one category, and the variables help people know what strats were used in the run.
You won't like my answer. It's the one you already said: don't do the glitch. Put "glitchless" in the title of your VOD. There is no shame in running the game the way that makes you happiest. Some of the runs on the leaderboard that have stood the longest are ones that came from a time before those glitches were either known about or used in runs. You can do quite well without every glitch in the game. All of the possible wings in the game probably add up to less than 90 seconds of timesaves.
- "clearing every intended exit" is a nod to the fact that you can get additional exits in the game from stages that you shouldn't be able to: if you use an orb in Bowser's castle, you can get an exit that you were never meant to. Those exits are what make categories like A2 possible (102 exits). The rule is that you are required to get every exit that would be possible to obtain in the game without glitches. But you are allowed to use glitches. We have just, as a community, made the decision that orb is not allowed because of the likelihood of crashing the game and the number of exits that would be optimal to obtain with orb (something in the ballpark of 20), the category is better off without it.
That being said, we have talked about having an additional category that permits orb in 96 exit because it is interesting in it's own right. However, that is a separate discussion. I hope that helps you understand.
Who are all these people that are so worried about SMW categories lmao
The run types column is done as a favor to other runners, so you can see what strats were used to compare. Hard to find the best glitchless time so you can figure out the best strats without it.
