But what exactly is not allowed?

The cutscene skip? The empty cutscene? The phase delay? The throw into corners? The TAS frame perfect hits after any jump? Or the game just killing itself on its own?

Like, even if you ban something this one could still be valid for Glitchless since the cutscene isn't skipped:

Just like this:

And this:

Like, even if you want to ban something about it, there are so many ways to break it (even unintentionally) since the fight is just JANK AF by itself so what EXACTLY are you banning?

specifically the glitch that allows to continue to beat the ninja while he's technically in the cutscene.

Made a video that explains the whole thing in detail

The category being called "glitchless" creates more confusion than necessary, thanks to situations like this. So I'll avoid calling the category as such and advocate calling it No Major Glitches (as it was previously, iirc).

Extending phase 2 due to poor programing of phase transitions shouldn't be considered 'glitching' the fight. As stated previously you can organically extend the phase w/o realizing it, as I did back in 2020 when testing this fight: (warning: NSFW language in clip).

Fundamentally this fight is broken (like many things in this game) under close examination. Like many fights on No Major Glitches, we break the functionality of the fight to exploit the mechanics/coding gaps to our advantage. For instance, the NMG category doesn't require you to avoid i-frame abuse on the Raven boss fight. Nor would it be reasonable to prevent people from extending Mantis attack gaps with the FAMAS, even though that affects the spirit of the fight.

I think there is an argument to be made that breaking the cutscene transition between Phase 1 and Phase 2 goes into 'major' territory, as Ninja's AI and behavior breaks down in a massive way and enables the player to do 'free' damage by overlapping Ninja's actions. Extending phase 2 and avoiding dialog in phase 4 should not be.

If this is an 'all or nothing' vote, allow it all. If this is more modular, ban the phase 1 exploit/glitch and allow everything else. Either of these outcomes seem reasonable to me. Banning it entirely is clinging to what the fight used to be, in my opinion.

Has anyone in this thread found any new positions? I‘m tired of this honestly. Constant back and forth, lose definitions, mods that rename categories at will just because they want to. What the hell has happened to this hobby.

I propose that the glitch to stay in control during the first cutscene as it was shown in the first post does not meet the nmg, gl or restricted nature of the category. The extended duration of a phase up into the end of the fight does not concern me personally.

If push comes to shove the supers will make a final call about this. I’m busy today so I guess I’ll let the situation rest another 24 hours and I’ll see if anything new has come to the table.

For me we should ban from Glitchless/NMG the phase 2 cutscene skip where the dialog still happens while Ninja holds his katana for the whole fight. But the phase 2 extension (aka throwing into corner or frame perfect punch) should be allowed as it's not a glitch but just an exploit of how the Ninja was (badly) programed.

To get the cutscene skip you have to do really specific inputs : throw him then shoot him on first frame then punch him on a 3 frames window, so you really need to want it to get this skip. However, phase extension is not a glitch but an exploit and can happen by accident on frame perfect input so it's not a problem to allow it on NMG.

So for the rules (if votes stay as it is right now) it should say : "Phase 2 cutscene skip on Ninja is BANNED but phase 2 extension is ALLOWED". That's the best compromise imo. Also I agree to call it back NMG instead of Glitchless, it makes more sense.

To me either are not a glitch even if they might look like it, just a happy coincidence in the frames.

But since it looks like I'll be in the minority anyway, if something has to be banned I'd say it is ONLY the cutscene being triggered but still being able to move around.

Everything else that doesn't involve specifically that should 100% get in.

Rules about this should go like "Being able to control Snake while a cutscene is playing is BANNED". So we just cut down the problem to the very root and solve eventual problems in the future with new possible skips.

And of course, switch it back to No Major Glitches.

Yeah I have no for glitchless and can understand it makes the fight harder. I understand both sides now but I am just still confused with how you can move while he's in cutscene dialogue. So for now it's a no for me but if it happens to move into NMG, then I will take the time to learn it of course.

The thing works like this:

1. You reach the requirements for Fox to switch phase, but you throw him instead so he can't immediately teleport away

2. Before the teleport there is 1 frame he can be hit by anything, so using the Famas makes it easy enough to hit. By doing this, you're keeping Fox in place and he can't teleport to where he's supposed to be for the camera anymore

3. In the first cutscene, Fox has to put the sword away, but since you're interrupting it with bullets, you're overriding the animation, and if you stop shooting it's like you override it again by just making it stop

At this point the game still plays the cutscene, but is unable to switch camera because of Fox's position and animation. Fox still has the behaviour as if he would be inside the cutscene, hence why he stands in place. He runs towards you if you keep him busy during the animation to take away the sword because it counts as movement inside the cutscene as well.

Due to work taking over heavily I can’t really finish the question in regards here. Either another mod can further advance the topic or I can check in during the weekend. Sorry for the delay.

I agree with the best AB runner Pazzo >:)

Alright, so from what I've read and how I understand all of this, plus taking into account all votes, it sounds like the best decision is a partial ban for Glitchless.

The rules now read as follows:

Ninja Fight: Skipping the start of Phase 2 monologue ("Hand to hand") is BANNED, but throwing Ninja during the fight to extend a phase is ALLOWED

If anybody has any questions, feel free to message a moderator. This topic is now closed and will be locked.