My vote is in favor of using warps, both in session and in the lobby. Both for solo play and for coop.

Also I am against removing runs that were published with compliance with the rules at the time of publication.

Because removing them would look like lawlessness.

Why restricting strategies harms GTAO Speedrunning

1. It Suppresses The Innovation and Natural Progression of Speedrunning

• Speedrunning thrives on discoveries. Every new strategy normally propels the community forward and constantly shaves off time of current runs. An active community is both the catalyst for this, and its most telling measure. If this doesn't happen, either community is dead, or something is deeply wrong with the way moderation is handled. Glad to see that GTAO community is still very active.

2. It Saps Runner Motivation and Community Growth

Because many skilled players know that they will be rejected on SRC, they will upload their runs on YouTube or Bilibili. Some end up in private, some are just scattered across the Internet. But countless others never even bother, because why would they? It's known from the get-go that the effort is very unlikely to be ever recognized. Restricting strategies that community accepts, also discourages creativity in runners — why would you test and find a new glitch, if it will inevitably be banned? Most likely because Witt suddenly changes his mind about it 8 month later, like with deathwarps (A.K.A 0;0 warps). Or because he realizes that mods & verifies have been verifying all the runs using a glitch he doesn't like, for at least 10,5 month(!!!), like with the black screen skip. It is total chaos, and as a result, the thrill of discovering strategies and running is non-existent, and finding actually good runs is next to impossible, because instead of evolving, SRC plateau in the most devastating way possible.

3. Consistency Doesn’t Require Oppression

The argument that restricting warp tricks preserves consistency falls flat:

• You can write clear, detailed rules that define valid glitches. Well-crafted guidelines will ensure transparency about what is allowed, and what's not, as well as secure a fair process in how a newly discovered glitch has to be handled.

• As countless other games do, Leaderboards could also just be split by glitching category, if that's what community, not madebyWITT, may want.

About just the current situation:

“Warp accounts were created just to allow for job warping, nothing.” That’s true, they were created for this purpose — but why cling to it? Actually, why would you not WANT for them to be used to save time in lots of other different ways, especially when the community is already doing it broadly?! EVEN "CONSOLES CAN'T DO THIS" ARGUMENT IS COMPLETELY INVALID HERE!

I haven't covered some other topics, like not adding new categories and having the "up to date rules" (more like the illusion of them) in Witt's Discord DM's instead of ruleset on this site, etc., because other members already did it in this same thread.

After such a long time of Witt's almost complete non-involvement while so many runs were being done (multiple WR's included!), seeing this spit in the face of the community happen... I'm struggling to find a plausible reason why madebyWITT would enforce restrictions like this, other than to try and keep his very old world records intact, while continuing to comfortably idle in his Super moderator chair and not care about runners.

I'm confident in saying I speak for the entire community: WE NEED A NEW SUPER MODERATOR!

For transparency, a bit earlier today I've reached out to other gta game mods, to see if there's someone with the time and capacity to oversee the current situation of sr.c/gtao, and to come with an outside perspective.

Just because something isn't in writing doesn't mean it is allowed. If you are doing something drastically outside of normal expectations for a game category, it is recommended to contact a moderator to clarify if it is allowed.

https://www.speedrun.com/support/learn/site-rules

Just because something is't in writing doesn't mean it is allowed. If you are doing something drastically outside of normal expectations for a game category, it is recommended to contact a moderator to clarify if it is allowed.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record, here I go:

The black screen skip (using a warp account) to get to freemode faster was already used in multiple verified runs and discussed by the community in public spaces where the mods had been active in the past. While it isn't the same as explicitly asking for clarification, it's the next best thing and I don't think it fits the definition of "drastically outside of normal expectations for a game category". Warp accounts usage in and of itself was already a known strat, this was just a different implementation of it.

Saying this also ignores the fact that you would've gotten a different answer depending on which moderator you would clarify the strat with.

While I will cede I did make the argument "it wasn't in the rules, so it must be allowed", it's important to note this was one of multiple examples that I used to argue my case from the perspective of a runner.

The fact remains that the rules were the bare minimum and there were rules being applied only the mod team knew existed, which is what got us in this mess in the first place, different mods applying different rules. Had they been written down and there was a public discussion, this situation wouldn't have occurred.

All that is in the past, we can only try to do better, and in then spirit of public debate and you being a notable community figure @Ragnarson70, I'd like to hear your opinion, for the record, on whether we should allow alternative uses of warp accounts and if we should retroactively remove runs that used it.

I can understand your displeasure, but I told you that just because it's not explicitly forbidden in the rules, it doesn't automatically mean it's allowed. Just click on the link at the top of the post. If you register here on the site, it's actually your responsibility to inform yourself of the rules. By the way, I've also been some rejected runs for using things like garage warp. That's my fault, I should have found out beforehand whether I was allowed to use it or not. The fact that some people here are now accusing Witt of wanting to protect his wr runs so that nobody can beat them is really crazy, especially when it comes from GEHT members who should actually know Witt better.

I would love to write something intelligent I lack the brainpower to do so I'll keep it short because of all the rule changes I feel like giving up speedruning forever I'm sorry witt but I will not play your shenanigans me as an autistic bipolar individual I lost all boredom in any excitement I did my best to get world records and because you wanna change the rules several months later after the mods approving the runs I did was all for nothing and any future attempts on console speedruning feels so at a disadvantage with it we in the console community feel like black screen skip shouldn't affect any runs. Ps I'm sorry xeenon, bitsau, and send for believing in me I appreciate yall from the bottom of my heart ❤️ 💙 I'm sorry if I butcherd your usernames wrong but yeah thats all I got to say in the matter

I'd like to offer a bit of an outside perspective here. As someone who enjoys watching speedruns rather than doing them myself, I also find this very strange and disappointing. It's like an athlete being disqualified right before the medal ceremony for violating a rule no one was aware of. I would understand if it were something that completely broke the game, but that's definitely not the case. Finding new glitches and coming up with creative optimizations is a big part of what makes speedrunning so fascinating to watch. I hope this decision is reversed.

Thank you for all your responses so far. If you haven't yet, please feel free, even if you're like @SarahCroft someone who enjoy consuming the content rather than creating it, your input is valued, whichever way you lean.

I'd like for this discussion to be as inclusive an cordial as possible.

At this point I've said my piece and find myself rephrasing the same argument over and over again, so as to not dominate the discussion I don't want to keep repeating it. Going forward I'll probably only reply to direct queries or if a new angle to this discussion comes up.

I'd also hate for this to turn into some pit where we air past grievances and keep it on topic, meaning the legality of alternative uses for warp accounts and retroactive removal of approved runs.

I think this discussion has exposed some repressed opinions, which may be relevant or just adjescent to what we're discussing here, but please use discretion, I fear if we allow the discussion to balloon to any related topic it becomes harder to make meaningful decisions in the end.

I'll address the following shortly:

The fact that some people here are now accusing Witt of wanting to protect his wr runs so that nobody can beat them is really crazy, especially when it comes from GEHT members who should actually know Witt better.

If this comment was aimed at me, you very much wrong.

I am raising an objection to a conflict of interest between myself (as one man, I don't wanna speak for any of my teammembers) and the supermod who's also the current WR holder.

That is not the same as accusing said mod of wrongdoing. The mere fact there's a conflict of interest can raise doubt about the excistence of bias, which is why in the professional world we have rules and guidelines around this (lord knows I've done enough corporate training). In general the conflict of interest would be resolved by simply avoiding it, let someone else handle it.

In that spirit, I'd like to commend WITT for how he's handled this situation so far, while I'm not making an accusation, it is not a light thing I've said.

I think him owning up to the initial mistake was the adult thing to do and I welcome his attempt to have an outsider (another GTA mod) come in to judge things objectively.

I (think at least) have a good relationship with WITT outside of sr.c and we see eachother pretty much every friday on crew events. To me that's all outside of the scope of what's happening here, a dispute between a runner and a moderator.

That said, you haven't responded to any counter argument I've made Rag, nor given your opinion on the matters up for discussion (which you don't have to, if you don't want to).

After laying back for a while and viewing on other peoples opinions, I feel like sharing my opinion on this situation. But before I dive in, I want to say that I have only been running GTAO for just over a year so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

I've always been a man of fair play. I always find a way to balance the field of play as much as I can, to create an equal opportunity for all competitors. This also crosses over to speedrunning. With the current ban of strategies such as 0 ' 0 warp and black screen skip has me feeling confused and angry. I think of speedruns as playing the games fast and using tons of different strategies to save time, whether they are hard or easy, or save little or a lot of time. Now both 0 ' 0 warp and black screen skip are very easy tricks and each have there different time saves depending on the situation they are used. Now onto my emotions. My confusion is mainly caused by the fact that these strategies can easily be performed on either pc or console, and they have the exact same effect on both platforms, linking back to my motto on fair play. And for the anger, mainly due to me losing my first main category world record, but also due to the fact that the banning of these strategies is hindering the progression of gtao speedrunning as a whole. Now I can understand the approach Witt is taking to this, being the fact that that it is using "warp accounts" for uses outside of job warping which is a fair argument. Yet there has been clear displeasure to these changes and there are very easy solutions, such as NMJ categories. But I am not a moderator, so I can't force change, but I would hope that something can be made of what I say and for others.

Feel free to agree or disagree with me, and note that I don't hold any grudges with anyone so all your replies will not receive any hate from myself.

I do really appreciate the constructive feedback here and elsewhere.

But I'll return to the point, yet again, that 1 player = 1 account. Which is something I still feel never needed much explanation.

This is far from being about strats, but rather the perception - and integrity - of aforementioned.

With it becoming a requirement to use warp accounts for for job warps (mainly relevant in categories with the activity warps variable), using another account then was allowed to create a fix for that. Yes, it's now more than clear that it could've been penciled out, then or along the way for sure.

The two or three times I've been asked, I feel I've been clear in my answer, yet this still caused confusion (due to lack of questioning my answer).

Warp accounts' join prompt getting used for:

• X making job warps work like before-ish
• Y exiting out of the black loading screen after e.g. cutscenes after heists setups
• Z same as Y, but doing it earlier to exit out while still in the cutscene

Both times I was asked it's been in the wording of Z, while I've not been aware of Y.

I've answered referring to X, that warp accounts only serve the purpose of fixing job warps.

I'm now assuming both people asking have been aware of Y, yet neither further questioned my wording, nor made me aware of Y - it's fair enough to assume that I should've known, though in that case my answer shouldn't have made much sense(?).

Without calling anyone out, this includes getting asked by one of the affected teams, a month prior to their run submission. Hence a bit sour feeling from my side re. this too.

I feel very, very sorry for this and the couple other teams/runners (12 in total?).

This have been caused by dysfunction within the - at the time - mod team, and runs passively slipping through via both former and current mods (myself included, the most recent run that brought attention to the situation).

As I've said, I take full responsibility for the oversight and not catching the it earlier. I would've hoped for more understanding overall, but I do get the unsettling feelings it gives. Especially when defining this as a strat, rather than what it actually - in my honest opinion - is.

@madebyWITT just and observation on points Y and Z. Couldn’t this have just been prevented by using IGT rather than RTA for the categories that have unpredictable black screen/cutscenes after each prep?

But I'll return to the point, yet again, that 1 player = 1 account. Which is something I still feel never needed much explanation.

I guess that's where we differ.

I don't see that account as a player at all, least of which one participating in the speedrun, rather more a tool, one which is used quite a lot, even during casual play.

The explaination that this account is somehow a participant goes beyond me, what is the contribution? Sitting in a friend only lobby 24 hours a day?

And if it were to technically become a player, would listing them as a 5th not solve the problem? (don't have to answer that because it's a silly solution anyway)

Without calling anyone out, this includes getting asked by one of the affected teams, a month prior to their run submission.

Yep, this was briefly mentioned in an earlier response, I don't really have a defense other than this was not communicated with the rest of the group as well as I'm losing out 2 more runs from 7 months ago for which this didn't happen.

The explaination that this account is somehow a participant goes beyond me, what is the contribution?

Well the continued upkeep of it (even if minimal) is coming from the outside (1:1 if a a runner's own private "warp account" too ofc), and it enables you to do something you wouldn't otherwise be able to.

But yeah, I respect your point of view. I'm hoping more people will join in here for some comments as well.

Well the continued upkeep of it (even if minimal) is coming from the outside (1:1 if a a runner's own private "warp account" too ofc), and it enables you to do something you wouldn't otherwise be able to.

The point is very well and understandably explained, as you said, this was only allowed to fix the teleportation so that warps true runs, can still be made. I see this point, and support it, especially for the reason, will be found a new teleport method without involve a warp account, the service will be shut down, maybe.

If your so formulated that an account that's meant for job warping stated by none other than witt (But I'll return to the point, yet again, that 1 player = 1 account. Which is something I still feel never needed much explanation.) If what I'm reading to what it says, We shouldn't allow job teleporting on account that use an extra player in order to perform job warping if we can't allow black screen skip because thats how it's preformed

No, that point has been discussed already.

Job warping via friend in social club was only allowed as a fix after patch 1.68 (chop shop DLC - winter 2023) killed the way job warps worked on PC (consoles had already been using friend warps for a while before then). PC runners had already wanted to use friend warps before this point but it wasn't allowed specifically because it used an external player. Only after 1.68 made it impossible to do runs which included freemode activities (preps which require job warping), was this changed because otherwise these categories would die off.

The usage of such accounts for purposes other than job warps is what we're discussing now, but the conclusion of one being allowed, so the other must be as well isn't correct.