United StatesEven misc categories have standards. Best ending, max% is a misc category because it offers unique, interesting gameplay; "no doppler skip"(I can't even believe I'm saying those words in that order) does not. You act like communities have some sort of responsibility to add categories for whatever dumb idea for a speedrun you come up with; they don't.
I don't think we need to run every small leaderboard change through the community, only major ones like expel a moderator or delete the entire leaderboard. Either way, I think it's a good idea to have the mmx discord link on the site somewhere so people can voice concerns if they have them, and I think most(if not, all) of the moderators are in the mmx discord already.
The difference with boards now is that we don't have any mods who are going to make extra categories for crap like this: 
and facilitate whatever other idea Cyberdemon comes up with to try and stir the pot.
This can go into all stages since you have a faster run in any% Cyberdemon, but if you do an actual all stages run that uses doppler skip and is faster than this, this run is going straight to the dumpster.
Thank you kirkq. I apologize for the misinterpretation on my part; I understand administrators have only the information they are given to base their decisions on. My main point there was that the other moderators at the time should have consulted the community before taking it to the administration level.
Now, onto how the leaderboards and submission process should work moving forward. I just spoke with Luiz on Discord and here's what we agreed on.
Submission process:
I'd rather be a little more lax about how people can submit runs than forcing them register on mmrta and only submit their runs there. I think that we should request runners submit their runs to both leaderboards, and every time a moderator verifies a run on one site, they will check the other site to see if it is also submitted there and verify that too. If the run was only submitted to one site and not the other, then the moderator should manually add it to the other site. Laseki, Nu, Auchgard, and LuizMiguel do the bulk of the X3 verifying on mmrta, so they have all been added as moderators here as well.
If there are any discrepancies that arise from something like a trusted member who isn't an X3 mod verifying a run on mmrta, then one of the mods can just take a glance at the two boards side by side once a week or so to make sure everything is synced up.
Leaderboard platforms/categories:
There are a couple differences from mmrta that I'd like to have on these boards since mmrta doesn't facilitate them at the moment.
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Combining PSX and XC: These were combined on mmrta before we made XC and Anniversary Collection separate games from the ports they contain, but that was done to clean up clutter of having a million categories for each game since platform+category combination is one tier of classification mmrta instead of separate tiers like they are here. I asked Joka if platform/category could be separated into individual tiers on mmrta like they are here, but he said it would be too much work at this point for too little gain, so I'm fine w/ just leaving that small difference between the two boards.
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Adding miscellaneous categories: Joka said this would be simple to implement on mmrta, so we'll add those over there as well whenever it becomes possible. These aren't on mmrta now because it would add an million extra platform+category combinations, but I like the way they are organized here.
I'd like to only add categories that actually have unique gameplay. The ones we'll add for now are "Buster Only"(no saber; sorry Jinny), "Best Ending, Max%", and "All Stages". Buster only won't have a PSX/XC platform since any% already is buster only there, and All Stages won't have a SNES platform since it would be identical any% on that platform.
Luiz isn't diametrically opposed to leaderboards existing on this site as he is being made out to be. The notion of deleting the leaderboards came about when Laseki added an XC run to the SNES boards and then a separate arbitrary category which isn't on mmrta and only one person runs. Keep in mind Luiz was moderating the boards here before he was removed as moderator for disagreeing with Laseki over these desicions, and it was Laseki who deleted the leaderboards because of the blowback he received for how disgracefully he and Crisco handled the situation.
After speaking with Luiz just now, he and I, who are both X3 moderators on mmrta, have agreed to moderate the speedrun.com leaderboards to keep them in parity with mmrta. We will manually re-add the runs that were deleted, and will verify runs which are submitted here along with the help of other moderators who the community can trust. This will satisfy your middleground of allowing people to track runs here and having moderation that represents the community.
This middleground, however, should not include keeping CriscoWild as a moderator for several reasons:
- He is not an mmrta moderator.
- He is not a notable X3 runner with a top time in any category.
- Was appointed moderator by Laseki, who no longer wishes to moderate these leaderboards, without the consultation of Luiz or any of the other mmrta moderators.
- Went behind the community's back to get Luiz removed as a moderator simply as a result of 2 forum posts in the moderator request thread instead of consulting the community on discord, because he knew that wouldn't fly with 99% of the people in it.
- Declared he would take over as "sole moderator" and acted like this gave him some sort of supreme mandate to do whatever he wanted with the leaderboards after getting Luiz removed and usurping sole moderation for himself in such an underhanded way.
I don't trust him in the slightest to be a moderator after pulling a stunt like this, nor do I think he really had any business being one in the first place.
I'm not insulting anyone. I'm letting the admins know who you are and why you have no business moderating the mmx3 leaderboards. Continuing to play the victim in every post doesn't make either of you any less unfit to moderate x3's boards than you were before. I've said all that needs to be said on the matter. I'll respond to any questions that admins need answered to make their decision and that's it; they already have enough bs to sift through.
It's hard to give anything you say about "behavior" any weight Cyberdemon. It's not by some cosmic coincidence that you're permanently banned from SpeedRunsLive, GamesDoneQuick, and twitch.tv. Calling his relays toxic isn't a personal insult; it's a personal opinion, and one shared by many at that. I was bringing that up as one of several examples as to why he isn't trusted to be a mod, though I think zam illustrated why he isn't better than I did.
You created an X6 leaderboard here to make easy mode the default difficulty when normal was the default on mmrta because that's what the majority of people ran on. It's changes like those that I don't trust you or anyone who regularly associates with you to not make.
Don't act like having dozens of categories with one run on them being a good thing is a fact and not an opinion. The contrary opinion is that leaderboards are meant to showcase competition and award individuals with prestige for their hard work, not to be a repository for any playthrough of any game ever which hands out a gold medal to everyone for trying. I have no say in how people choose to play games, but communities do have a say in what is deemed competitive and relevant enough of a category to be on a speedrun leaderboard.
Like I said, there's nothing wrong with keeping the boards here in parity with mmrta if there is someone who is trusted in the community and willing to do it. Laseki was trusted to do that by everyone as far as I know, but stepped down and deleted the boards after receiving blowback for getting Luiz removed as a mod, leaving you the only mod by sheer accident. You think that gives you a mandate to start doing whatever you want when the vast majority of the community disagrees with it, but you never even should have been one in the first place. You're not one of the game's moderators on its already well-established leaderboards, you're not close to a top time in any category, and you're largely known as "the guy who hosts the toxic relays", which is why I'm asking the admins here to remove you as a moderator.
The moderators for Mega Man X3 on mmrta are bjw, LuizMiguel, Nu, and myself(JustinCredible as well but I don't think he has an account here). One or all of us should be added as moderators to replace CriscoWild.
If someone who is trusted within the community offers to keep srcom in parity with mmrta, then we will add them as a moderator if/when that happens, but until then we will just link to mmrta. By someone trusted, I mean pretty much anyone who isn't Cyberdemon531 or any of his lackeys who would undoubtedly start doing things like adding dozens of extra categories with exactly one time for them(that was probably the only run they ever did of it), making X Collection the default platform when the vast majority of people run on Snes, etc...; those kinds of changes.
And having to click one additional link to get to a game's leaderboards does not "limit the game's exposure" by the way. That seems to be the linchpin of your argument as to why there needs to be an additional X3 leaderboard here under any circumstances, and it's probably the weakest argument I've ever heard. You literally just have to click one more link.
There's nothing wrong with keeping an identical leaderboard here that maintains parity with the mmrta leaderboards if there are trusted moderators who are willing to be diligent about it. That's what's being done with RosenkreuzStilette and RosenkreuzStilette Freudenstachel for instance. The problem is when you have rogue mods here adding X Collections runs to the Snes leaderboards, adding meme categories like "PSX/XC any%, no Doppler skip", etc..., and then attempting to usurp sole moderation when the community tells them to stop.
Requesting CriscoWild be removed as moderator from the Mega Man X3 leaderboards and LuizMiguel added to replace him. Luiz is unquestionably the most notable mmx3 runner, has held the any% and 100% records for multiple years now, is well-respected by the mmx community as a whole, and should have never been removed as a moderator in the first place. I understand the admins didn't have any dissent to base the decision off of, but that's likely because nobody in the mmx community uses this website for those games, let alone checks the forums regularly.
The majority of runners with top times removed their runs from these boards because we don't feel the need to have two separate leaderboards for the same game, srcom and mmrta(which we have been using for years), to open up the possibility for any ambiguity caused by discrepancies between the two boards based on the whims of whoever happens to be moderating this site at the time. Laseki removed himself as a moderator because of the blowback he got from usurping moderation from Luiz, but it looks like CriscoWild, who I've never heard of before this debacle and incidentally happens to be the only mod left over after Luiz's removal and Laseki's resignation, is trying to assume sole authority and start new boards in his image against the community's wishes. I definitely think he should be removed as moderator and LuizMiguel, who is one of the moderators on the mmrta boards, reinstated as one.
Speaking of logical fallacies, a lot of people are are invoking the "this isn't worth causing upheaval in the community over" argument, and I would just like to point out that such an appeal to the majority has no place in a discussion that can be solved completely with logic and common sense. If disallowing 1-to-1 rebind and using alternate input devices was a sensible thing to do, then it should be done regardless of how many people are opposed to it, but it isn't.
[quote=Grimelios]I wanted to point out that the "slippery slope" a few people have mentioned is a logical fallacy. When's the last time you heard about someone physically attaching a wheel to their keyboard to simulate scroll wheel? Those kinds of what-if scenarios aren't going to happen. We all know each other in this community. Who's going to pull something like that? And if they do, we'll discuss it then.[/quote] There is no slippery slope in our argument when we firmly draw the line at using 1-to-1 rebinds/different input devices. A slippery slope argument would be, "Well, while banning scroll wheel is ok in and of itself, this would open the door to having to ban other things that wouldn't be ok." We have already stated that rebinding to the scroll wheel is not "cheating" and given our reasons why; the onus is upon you to prove that it is if any changes are to be made. There is no need to discuss peripheral or subsequent consequences until you have done that.
[quote=Grimelios]Next, the 1-to-1 argument. Yes, scroll wheel is technically still 1-to-1, making it not true turbo, but as we've mentioned many times now, it effectively lets you perform in ways that are virtually impossible for humans. Yes, you could theoretically bind a row of keys to left click and roll your fingers, but that's way harder than using scroll wheel. Plus, you only have so many fingers. I feel this point of "turbo" vs. "technically not turbo" isn't useful, because it's effectively pretty close to turbo.[/quote] Difficulty is completely subjective. Saying "it's easier" is meaningless and irrelevant when this will differ from person to person. Drawing a line at 1-to-1 binds is objective, and is the only thing that matters here.
[quote=Grimelios]I'm not surprised that KBM runners want to keep scroll wheel, but I'm frustrated at what I feel are shaky justifications, when the reality (to me) seems to be that KBM runners enjoy the advantages of scroll wheel and don't want to lose the extra time or have to re-learn. Both of those things are understandable.[/quote] This kind of baseless speculation and strawmanning is completely unnecessary. We've already explained our argument by giving objective points, and for you to say "Hmm none of that matters because I think your real reason for arguing is because you don't want to get good," is inane and, quite frankly, insulting. Do you have any idea how easily I could turn the same argument around on you? "The only reason you want to ban scroll wheel is because controller doesn't have one and you don't want to take the time to re-learn the game on KBM even though you know it's the superior input device." Obviously, I don't believe that. People can and should play on whatever input device they want for whatever reason they want, but I'm simply not going to let you get away with dogmatically saying "Well I'm right and you're wrong, but the only reason we're capitulating is because of tyranny of the majority" like Vulajin did when players were binding multiple actions to one input in the keyconfig.txt.
"But now it's being used to do TAS-like Spirit Flame inputs. It's letting people kill enemies without slowing down in a way that's humanly impossible. It's giving Ginso boss cycles that are humanly impossible."
This is simply factually incorrect. Turbo-speed mashing is ¤not¤ humanly impossible. There are plenty of other input devices that make fast mashing easier aside from the scroll wheel. I've seen 32hz mashing performed on a hitbox using a technique that uses 8 fingers on the same input, which is even faster than turbo. Could do the same thing on a controller if you put it somewhere that it won't be able to move around without holding it while you mash.
¤ "The original concept of "it's not verifiable" should not have ever been considered a factor. There are many forms of cheating that are not easily verifiable (or verifiable at all), and it is not a good reason to allow something questionable. "Just because you can't prove cheating doesn't mean you shouldn't ban it.""
This is a completely loaded statement in that it implies rebinding keys is a "form of cheating". I'll never understand the notion of any 1-to-1 key rebinding being "cheating" when you can literally plug in any input device and have all of your binds remapped automatically. It might remap wasd to a dpad, or to a joystick, or to maybe a DDR pad or a steering wheel, maybe even to an apparatus of Rockband drum pedals, or to a scroll wheel. Each input device is going to have advantages/disadvantages over others in specific aspects of gameplay, but no video game platform, especially not PC, has 1 single input device that has to be used to play a game. Maybe if this was a console game you could try to invoke the "official hardware" argument, but this argument is even weaker on PC where there is no "official hardware". I can use whatever hardware I want, and I don't have any responsibility to disclose which hardware I'm using to anyone, nor if I'm using software to facilitate 1-to-1 rebinds to other input devices(i.e. from keyboard to mousewheel) simply to use other hardware.
Sigma is right; trying to ban 1 piece of hardware is a slippery slope when people will simply use other hardware to achieve a similar result. Trying to call using different hardware cheating is not a very compelling argument when there isn't one single piece of hardware for feeding inputs into any console.
¤ "Mouse wheel was only allowed to make TAS-level strats easier, not to level the playing field between input devices or anything similar. Removing the mouse wheel might make a few things slower, but it would conform to the game's bindings and not make any large tricks suddenly "impossible" (simply more difficult)."
I don't find this argument to be particularly persuasive either when the notion of difficulty is purely subjective. I've speedran a number of platformers before and use a similar key configuration for each one to make the same fingers do similar actions across games. Even in vanilla when there was no keyconfig.txt, I just remapped my keyboard keys in my registry so I could play a hybrid style with both hands on the keyboard for the majority of the run. This makes playing the game easier for me since it is what I'm used to, but if you tried to use my binds when you're used to using a game's default mappings it would be harder for you. Does this make you more skilled than me because you use the game's default binds whereas I rebound mine because of my experience running similar platformers? Should I conform to the game's input configuration limitations and fight my intuition and muscle memory every step of the way to level the playing between me and a less experienced speedrunner who has to do no such thing? If those aren't your reasons for trying to prohibit rebinds/alternate hardware then what are? Something as simple and dogmatic as "the game doesn't allow it" doesn't really fly when the game doesn't even know which input device you're using nor how your bindings are mapped on it in the first place.
¤ "¤ Allowing the mouse wheel only pushes the best time lower and lower. Anything that can be done physically should be allowed if it makes the run faster. The external software is only being used to allow a bind, not perform any additional actions automatically (e.g. a macro)."
This is really the only point that matters. Using macros turns your run into a tool-assisted speedrun; 1-to-1 rebinds and alternate input devices do not.
¤ "Several runners have been using mouse wheel for a long time now and have become accustomed to it. Removing it would force these runners to rewrite a lot of muscle memory and might cause them to instead abandon the game."
This point isn't entirely accurate, at least not in my case. I would probably wouldn't abandon the game entirely but I certainly would stop submitting submitting my runs to the leaderboards, and not because I don't feel like getting used to playing the game differently. I don't feel the need nor the desire to compete with a community that propagates something as asinine as using 1-to-1 rebinds/alternate input devices makes a speedrun tool-assisted.
Hi, I don't use this site for mega man series games, but since Orsa brought this to my attention I will give my two cents.
I am currently a Mega Man X4 mod on the mmrta leaderboards, the leaderboards which the majority of Mega Man X community members use, and helped to establish the system we set in place there for comparing times of this game.
While some communities play on the fastest version of a game and others play on the original version, it generally comes down the preference of the majority of members, most prominent members, or oldest members of that community. In the case of the Mega Man X series, the vast majority of members prefer to not play on the fastest version(Mega Man X Collection) for a number of reasons:
- X collection has several glitches and inconsistent load times that are not present in the original versions
- PS2 and Gamecube emulators have terrible emulation, high system requirements, and high input delay
- X Collection itself has no lag emulation and no load times in places where they are used to buffer inputs, changing a number of strategies throughout the runs
Because of this, we have established the fastest language of the original versions of each game as the "standard" version(Japanese for X1,2,3,5,6 and English for X4), and converted faster/slower versions to this standard if a static conversion was applicable and separated faster versions if no such conversion could be made. X Collection was separated for all 6 games because its inconsistent load times, unique glitches, and lack of lag emulation made static conversion impossible for all games.
Cyberdemon and Peterafro champion the idea that all versions should be conglomerated, essentially forcing anyone seeking to attain a competitive leaderboard time to play on X Collection. While this is how some communities categorize their games, these two are in a small minority in the Mega Man X community and are a bad representation of the of the majority of the community's ideals, where we go to great lengths to enable and encourage fair competition on as many game versions as possible.
Because of this, I also believe that Cyberdemon and Peterafro should be demodded, and that MopeyJoe and Orsa, who are much more active X4 runners and whose ideals more closely reflect the majority of the Mega Man X community, should be modded in their place.
