Skino, the point is that I can also use Warp 16 with No Gate Skip. It takes about 14 minutes, or 17 minutes. So there are 2 divisions for each category.

Skino makes a good point. There's two ways to do it, and either one works about the same.

The current setup is basically a Warp 16 category (Any%), and a Warp 8 category (subdivided into Gate Skip & No Gate Skip).

Skino suggests the alternative, a Gate Skip category (subdivided into Warp 8, and Warp 16), and a No Gate Skip category (subdivided into Warp 8, and Warp 16).

Likewise, Skino suggests that No Gate Skip with subdivision Warp 8 should be viewed first, because it is the most popular "fast time" group, even though it's not the fastest.

I suppose I'm ok with either arrangement. While Skino's arrangement would get rid of a generic (unlabeled) Any% category, I think that's probably ok, because this is a very unusual game, and the different speedruns probably should be more specific (and thus, clearly labeled).

As I said before, I don't think any other major discoveries will be found, so we're getting pretty close to where we need to be. And in the future, any other random speed-run configurations can be put into Miscellaneous.

Toca, do you have a further opinion on how it should be split up?

I might lean in favor of Skino's suggestion, because, as I said, the primary focus should be on the game play ability (gate Skip), and the warp length is a secondary clarification.

• No Gate Skip (Warp 8 / Warp 16)
• Gate Skip (Warp 8 / Warp 16)
• No Warp.

I actually like the way you did it. I do want to suggest a slight modification. This new warp to level 16 was extremely unexpected, so I'm just trying to figure out the best way to update reality, and be fair to everyone. I appreciate your patience as we try to make room for this crazy "game changing" discovery.

As far as these Miscellaneous categories go, remember that we want to make sure we provide a good separation between the three main types of play for this game. 1 - using warps to corrupt the prince's animation, for the purpose of skipping gates, and skipping large portions of levels. 2 - using warps only to skip ahead to another level, and to activate the Kill Button. 3 - the standard game play, with no warps or corruption, & no special abilities.

From that perspective, the specific warps are really secondary, but I think the main two considerations would just be for levels 8 and 16. So, I agree with you that we shouldn't complicate things by creating a new category for every single possible combination (there are lots of warps). I've been researching this game constantly for the past 4 months, so I think the best idea is to simply delineate between level 8 and 16, and let the other warps (4, 6, 6.5, 7) just be "allowed" within the limit of an 8 or 16 framework. Furthermore, I do think it is important to highlight level 8, because it has been the main warp, and should remain a very interesting and competitive route, since it doesn't skip all the interesting levels.

So I would propose the following list of 4 categories, for now (without Miscellaneous):

• Any% -- rules state that any warp is allowed, (with a note that warps only going as high as level 8 will be put into one of the level 8 categories), and any related animation corruption that allows the prince to skip through closed gates is permitted. -- This category will inevitably be dominated by "Warp 16", as no other method could come close, time-wise.

• Any% (Warp 8, w/ Gate Skip) -- rules state that this category will restrict use of warps to those which only go as far as level 8. This language would allow lesser warps to remain in the category & become obsolete when the player is ready to submit a better run with a better warp.

• Any% (Warp 8, no Gate Skip) -- same as above, but using animation corruption to skip gates is not allowed.

• Any% (No Warp) -- the original game.

This makes a lot of sense to me, by having divisions based generally on length and on special abilities. Each of the 4 categories suggested above should be quite different from one another, and should be fairly competitive. In my opinion, there will not be any further warp discoveries, so this framework should nicely cover all of the different options.

I think any other combinations, such as "Warp 16, no Gate Skip", or "Gate Skip, Beat All Levels", could be appropriately placed in the Miscellaneous section later, as they are kind of random.

hey Tocaloni, I've come up with some new routes for the Any% category, so if you can add those, I'll submit a new video.

The current submission for Any%, at 20:15, is for the route called "Warp 6."

I have created a new route which warps to level 8, so we can create a route label for that called "Warp 8."

And I've also created a new route which warps to level 16, and the official time is 12:12. I'll be continuing to work on that one to bring it down below 12 minutes. This will need a route label called "Warp 16."

Let me know when you have set those up, and I will go ahead and submit my 12 minute video for "Warp 16."

While you're at it, you might as well create route labels for the other category, "Any% No Gate Skip." The current submissions there use the "Warp 8" route. I'm working on an alternate "Warp 16" with no gate skipping, which will belong in that category.

I think a good example would be Super Mario Bros 3. It has different categories for things you cannot do.

SMB3 categories:

Any%, anything goes. Any%, Warp, (no Wrong Warp). Any%, (no Warp). and 100%.

Perhaps this could be how you view Prince of Persia.

Any%, anything goes. Any%, Warp, (No Gate Skip). Any%, (No Warp). and 100%.

From there, perhaps Miscellaneous categories for Beat-Every-Level.

Any% (20 Levels). Any% (No Gate Skip) (20 Levels).

yes, that makes sense.

But if I wish to make multiple submissions, as I would like to compete on the different routes, would the "Any" filter show both of my records? I'm worried that since it is one category, I will be limited to 1 video.

If I may be allowed to continue my argument for a different category, it is my opinion that a comparison could be made. There is a very large difference between Any% (with warp), and Any% (No Warp), because the Warp ability radically changes the Game, to skip levels and instantly Kill guards.

I believe that again the Game is radically different, in a similar comparison between the Warp ability, and the Skip Gate ability. This is basically a new ability that is not normally available if you just simply Warp. You actually have to find multiple warp combinations.

It is my intention in the future to further expand these categories, by submitting runs for different routes, in which the player must "beat every level." For Warp category, this would be an interesting alternative competition to use Kill Button as the side-effect of a warp, but still having to showcase the full scope of the game. Similarly, I would like to submit a run for Gate Thief + Beat Every Level, to showcase the scope of the alternate routes for the Gate Thief on every level, rather than just levels 6+.

I think it would be a lot more organized if Warp & Gate Thief each had Any% & Beat Every Level, as THOSE are where the Alternate Route option makes more sense.

I understand that this may not be a normal way of viewing things, considering the Speedruns Website has had many years, and many games, to create a good understanding of how things should be defined. So if I am wrong, I suppose I'll have to accept it. But I do think it would be unfair if I was limited to 1 video, and could not compete on both "routes."

Hey, Toca, I wonder if you could expand on the idea of filtering different routes. I looked at Dark Souls as your example, but I didn't see any available route filters. I did, however, see tons of categories, including a number of miscellaneous categories.

I wouldn't see the harm in having an "Any% Gate Thief" category here.

My main concern is that I would like to actively compete on these different routes, since they are very different -- they make the game & strategy very different. Skipping gates is huge! I would hope that I can submit different runs for Regular Warp, and for Gate Thief. Will that be possible without an extra category?

This is Gate Thief #1. Each Gate Thief is vulnerable to being rescrambled by certain warps, which would change the animation, and lose the Sword, and lose the gate-skipping ability.

Gate Thieves #1 and #3 can only warp to level 6. Whereas, Gate Thief #2 can only warp to level 8.

I might consider getting a capture card now. This speed-running is fun!

I really would prefer to have different categories, because I want to push myself to make a record for the non-gate thief routes.

Also, please notice that the 20:15 time here is a coincidence. This was not the reference I made in the other thread, when I said I could maybe get 20:15 for the non-gate thief routes.

Of course you can see the advantage for the Gate Thief. Even with 3 minutes of glitches, and 2 extra levels, he runs the levels in 17 minutes! Lol.

I have just completed my first SNES WARP speedrun using the Gate Thief sprite scramble. Any time you use a Warp Glitch in SNES version, the Prince's sprite is scrambled. Many different combinations of animation frames are possible, depending on where, when, and how many glitches you do.

As you can see in the current submissions for SNES WARP, the level 8 warp causes the Prince's running animation to alternate between a running and a standing pose. He makes a weird crouch while climbing, and temporarily becomes a brown Sword (it looks like a red ribbon) at the end of the climbing sequence.

Other warps can cause the Prince to temporarily look like a guard, skeleton, or even Jaffar. The Gate Thief is a little bit of everything. Sometimes the Prince, sometimes a guard, and sometimes a Sword. When you are the Gate Thief, some of the Sword frames are parallel to the ground, and at that moment, the Prince can slide underneath a closed gate.

This ability has its limitations. It is by no means easy in all instances. And if you make a mistake, you can still collide with the gate, and lose time.

Because this limited ability makes such a huge difference in the game, and the different routes that can be taken, I think it is appropriate to have a different SNES "Gate Thief" category for runs using these glitches.

Personally, I am very interested in leaving the SNES Warp category the way it is, with no gates skipped, so that I can compete in that longer format.

My record for Gate Thief is 20:15.993. This is 4 minutes 13 seconds faster than the SNES Warp record.

I will provide a link now, to YouTube, so that everyone can see the run, and the details, while considering my request for a new category. If the idea is approved, and the new category created, I will officially submit this run for it.

Skino, I have to tell you, my old individual level runs (levels 8 thru 20) from 4 months ago add up to about 21 minutes. I say 4 months ago, because I've spent the last 3 months perfecting my "Gate Thief" videos, which follow a different path. I've been watching the seconds fall away like leaves from a tree. You will be shocked when you see how much time you are wasting on each level.

It actually is amazing how much time you save with small changes. I expect that if I spend a month practicing the regular path (from your video), I will be safely below 21.5 minutes total, and maybe very close to 21 minutes for the record.

I recommend that you study Challenger's TAS, and employ more discipline in your runs. There's a ton of time to be saved.

When you take away the guards with Kill Button, about 95% of the tricks used in the TAS are very easy and usable. It's just a matter of practice and memory.

Nice run, skino! Very solid!

Zot & I have our work cut out for us.

Skinomarsh, we are not calling you a cheater anymore. I understand your English is difficult, and I've been talking too much. On behalf of Zot, we offer an apology for the sharp words. You made a mistake by leaving out a step, and the MODs made a mistake by not making the rules clear. We are in the process of fixing that.

Your run is very good, and you may be able to figure out Zot's technique, or add a small amount of time to show the way you make the warp work best for you.

We look forward to seeing your new video.

To restate our opinion for the MODs, Zot & I believe the rules should clearly explain that the speedrun must begin the first time you start a "New Game" from power-on. You cannot start a game, do some warps, exit, and then begin the run on another "New Game" later. All game-play intended to alter the status of things, to make the wrong warps work the way you want them to, should be counted as a part of the speedrun time.

Really, though, the only way to verify that this rule is followed, is if the MOD approving the submission is familiar with how the warps work. Experts like myself & Zot would immediately be able to tell if a player left out some extra steps, if the warp behaves differently than expected. As I said, all warps speak for themselves, in that anyone can turn on a console or emulator, and attempt to do the exact same trick they see in the video. If the video is different from what the player can recreate, then it's possible a step was left out, and the speedrun is incomplete (and invalid).

I'll leave it to you, Zotmeister; but I think for the integrity and consistency of the category, we should explain your technique -- if not publicly, then at least to the MODs in private, so they can understand on sight what is happening when a new guy submits a run.

Zotmeister, while the rules are being discussed, I would offer a counter-argument to when the time should stop. The general idea of the rule is to pick a spot that is the same for everyone, and can be visually confirmed with a frame count. I think that the "finish line" is not a good place to end, because it's basically an audio confirmation as to when the music starts.

With some sprites, or positions, the Prince can be concealed for 1 or 2 more frames of animation behind the curtain before the music is initialized. And when the music starts, the flame is still flickering. So there really is no visual confirmation there, to cover every scenario.

Next, in all other levels, the game clock is still ticking, and game control (accessing menus, pausing) is still available while the music is playing, and for those levels, speedrun time for individual levels would not end on the frame you push "up" to go into the Exit Doorway.

On level 20, you can access the "Select Menu" after the Prince has reached the finish line, to pause game clock, for the purpose of achieving "0:00" time on Best Times for level 20. So in that instance, you are still intentionally playing the game after the Prince touches the finish line.

All these tell me that, dispite this version of the game being different from the others, it still seems appropriate to me for the time to end on the first frame of the Princess Bedroom, when control is truly lost, and a visual confirmation of frame count can be made.

We can't use the music for accurate time, because there might be a slight audio sync issue for some people. And otherwise, using a human hand to manually stop a clock when the music plays is not accurate, even to 0.1 seconds.

All this is to say that I think the rule should be left as is, for the Princess Bedroom, and that you should recalculate your time.

Thanks, 7eraser7. I would note that zotmeister was not being aggressive, but defensive. I had called his run into question, as well as Skinomarsh's, and he needed to offer clarification. I think we understand now, the difference between the two runs.

Skinomarsh's mistake was in trying to imitate the form of zotmeister's video, by just starting with the warp. Now that we have discussed the difference, I think we are in a good position to start making the rules more clear.

I edited my original post to single out the #1 record, and confirm that your record has been correctly documented.

However, I would offer a possible correction. I think you stopped the timer at the wrong place. I think we're supposed to count time until the first frame of the Princess's Bedroom, not earlier when the Prince touches the finish line in level 20.

A few responses to your comments:

I think it's basically unnecessary to provide any proof that you haven't cheated or entered codes, because the video itself really proves whether or not you used or took advantage of any extra-curricular cheats. The Warp Glitch fairly well speaks for itself, and by this time, it's common knowledge that the only tool needed here is the Kill Button, which is automatically unlocked by the glitch. Unfortunately, another cool time-saving tool is the Sound Menu, which, after performing a warp glitch, cannot be accessed via START+SELECT again until after Debug Code is input. I thought it might be an interesting discussion to consider the possibility of allowing Debug Menu for the purposes of accessing Sound Menu. It's easy enough to verify, by watching the video, that Level Jump and Health Boost were not used once Debug Menu is reactivated.

The Console Reset Button is another interesting topic. Some of the cool setups I've discovered do require a console setup. And I've had to create work-arounds to avoid the reset button (which take longer), to ensure that a non-reset version is available for use, in case of rules limitations, etc. Personally, I think Reset Button should definitely be allowed for speedruns, and it's just up to the player to decide whether or not it's worth it to spend the extra 25 seconds waiting for the Title Screen. I definitely agree that all game-play involved in the setup should be counted against you, including optional console reset.

I'm glad you joined the speedrun forum for this little discussion. I'm sure you'll be quite surprised to see what I have in store for this category. If you want a sneak peak, you can check out the TAS Forum discussion, linked here in the SNES Warp Rules, and skip ahead to page 6, where I've posted a litany of hand-made glitch videos on my console, as well as complete speedrun videos for the individual levels 6 thru 20, with some cool comparison videos.

Well, I think we're on the same page. I must offer my congratulations to you for discovering that technique to immediately warp without the need for intermediary "buffer" glitches, which I had previously failed to discover. As a reward, I'll offer you a tip. I've discovered your technique, and I'll avoid spelling it out, since you avoided doing so. But I'll offer you an improvement. If, instead of jumping directly into the wall, and doing the warp in a total of 5.5 seconds, you were to spend an extra 6 seconds to do the following alternate warp entry, you will find the Prince (and the guards) to be completely visible on level 8, which is a moderate help in traversing the invisible level -- it may even help enough to save more than 6 seconds. You can run to the edge, turn & climb down the hole and back up again, twice, and then turn and run off the edge, and exit on the last frame. This spacing, a bit further away from the wall, will avoid turning the Prince into a mirage of bricks.

Anyway, I'm in agreement with you that the other guy's video needs to be redone. He obviously had another minute or two of game-play to corrupt his sprite and "loosen up" the level 8 warp, and that time should be counted against him.

However, I wouldn't call the player a cheat. I would just say that the category has not been properly enforced, and as such, the player has not been made properly aware of the exact particulars, as far as determining the official time is concerned.

I'll also put your mind at ease by letting you know that in the near future, I may consider putting all my individual level performances together, and submit a sub-20 record that will make the other guy's video irrelevant. lol.

I'd appreciate it if we could get some further clarification from the MODs, concerning my previous question, for Pop1 SNES Warp category.

RTA rules clearly states that timing begins on the first active frame. But the current #1 record for this category is starting later, after the player has played the game for a little bit, and performed some necessary tricks to prevent the level 8 warp from freezing the game. Then, after they've done some early tricks, they start level one from a later time, and not the original state, and not from the first active frame.

If you don't have to show the setup before the warp, as a part of the run, then I'm about to submit a sub-18 minute run, and let everyone wonder how I set it up.

[edit #1 -- I have edited this post to single out the #1 record. -- I have confirmed on my console that Zotmeister's #2 record is legitimate, and was correctly performed, recorded, and timed.]

[edit #2 -- MODs have updated rules, and top submission has been redone to comply.]