Do we allow them?

For the porpoises discussion a multilogging strat is any where the main speedrunning account (i.e. the one the speedrun is being completed on) takes an action which benefits it that it could not have taken if runescape was a singleplayer game.

Examples of multilogging strats:

¤ Picking up bones from when another player dies ¤ Picking up ashes from another player's fire ¤ Using a shield of arrav alt to trivialize that quest ¤ And more!

I personally think that the only "multilog" strat that should be allowed is picking up someone else's ashes from their fire. This is allowed under the normal ironman rules set by Jagex.

Things like killing alts, opening up all the doors in the run on an alt or using an alt for benefits such as those are abusing methods rather than using methods like with the ashes.

I don't think there's anything wrong with having to hope that you pass by someone lighting fires and ashes being on the ground, it adds another element of "player RNG" like with buying wines.

I'm going to copy and paste some stuff from 2016 discussion that still remains true:

"I'm a big fan of our current routing as everything you do is done solely by yourself, is achieved without external help (hence ironman), and agree that multilogging feels like it ruins the point of the category. In all honesty, I don't think setting up a multitude of accounts and suiciding them and doing other things with them while doing the main route sounds fun at all." -TheDarkestUno 2016

"One thing I don't like about multilogging strats is how much more it will limit what hardware people will be able to speedrun the game on. Some of OSRS's strongest appeal is that it's a game which can run on very low specs PCs. Requiring players to multiclient can cause lots of lagg and will deter players from speedrunning this game. The additional setup required to get enough accounts in position to die for you at a specific time will make resets more annoying and further deter players from speedrunning this game." -Metruption 2016

As for a 2017 viewpoint, I'm still heavily against anything that even correlates to multilogging, including: 1) Picking up another person's ashes 2) Picking up another player's bones 3) Using any account (your's or somebody else's) to aid in the run. a) This includes body-blocking Count Draynor, suiciding accounts for bones, using an alt to make a fire prior, alts damaging rats on Tutorial Island, etc. 4) Having friends/other people aid in the run (opening doors repeatedly, selling wines to the wine shop, etc.)

This begs the question, where do we draw the line? I think some of these things should should still be allowed within the run: 1) Having a couple doors be conveniently open (no way to avoid this, shouldn't be classified as multilog if it's only a couple select occasions) 2) Having the coffin be open during Restless Ghost Essentially anything that we can't avoid if somebody else messes with during the run.

One thing I would be okay with being allowed or disallowed would be using somebody else's fire to cook food on Tutorial Island. I could see both sides of this.

Multilogging ruins the point and essence of the run and defeats the person of being an ironman. Even though multilogging strats may become "optimal" and faster, I believe that multilogging shouldn't be allowed in most situations. If we do decide to continue to allow the incorporation of multilog runs, I believe we should subjugate them under a new sub-category as we currently do when separating UIM and IM runs. (For example, we would have a F2P Champ's Guild no multilog, and a F2P Champ's Guild any%)

The problem that would still stand would be, how would we be able to tell when someone is repeatedly assisting in the run? The thing is we can't, in most situations. We aren't able to tell if a runner simply got good wines or if someone stocked them prior. We aren't able to tell if someone just conveniently opens doors and disappears before the runner gets there. It's hard to enforce these things from a moderation perspective. a) We can however tell if you are suiciding accounts and picking up bones, picking up other's ashes, or body-blocking Count Draynor.

We shouldn't have to rely on "Player RNG" in order for the run to be optimal. Normal game RNG is one thing, but to enforce and promote assistance from "Player RNG" is taking things a step too far. I'm very much of the idea that runners should do everything for themselves.

TL;DR: All in all, I'm heavily opposed to multilog strats as it defeats the purpose of the run and think we should separate multilog runs into their own sub-category. List of what I think "multilogging" entails listed above. Multilogging strats aren't fun and shouldn't be enforced in order to be optimal. We shouldn't promote "Player RNG" as required in order to be optimal in the run.

Don't know if I have any say to be considered since I haven't actually submitted a run yet, but, here's my thoughts:

Multi-logging isn't within the spirit of these runs, and in this case, not particularly in the spirit of Runescape in general. I know that Jagex has said that multi-logging is within the rules, but in the actual rules, they include this line: "Similarly, multi-logged accounts must not interact with each other to exploit gameplay mechanics, such as attempting to rig the result of a minigame." To me, given that this is a competitive setting, this applies, even though we make the rules and the competition ourselves, it's still using multiple accounts to abuse gameplay mechanics within a competitive setting. Not to mention it being an ironman run and the spirit of ironman being a solo, self-reliant account.

I'm also going to second the point about hardware specs because I know that if I was running two accounts simultaneously and trying to record the run, my computer would eat the dust.

I'd consider multi-logging in the case of an all f2p quests speedrun if that was a thing, only because shield of arrav would require another account. Even in that case though, I'd rather see it as a co-op run where both players have to beat all quests and can help each other through them than multi-logging.

My vote is a no. We don't currently multi-log, and it feels against the spirit of the run.

All of your points I agree with, LadyRedpool, however you didn't acknowledge picking up ashes from someone else's fire which Jagex let ironmen do.

That's because I have a split opinion on it. It's a small enough thing, and can be grabbed randomly from another player's fire who isn't you and that you don't know. Just like you can/can't get enough wines because someone has already been through the wine stall. On the other hand, it is somewhat against the spirit of ironman, because you didn't make a fire and collect the ashes yourself, even being a small thing like ashes.

I feel like it's more something that's more like doors being conveniently open, and didn't occur to me as a multi-logging issue.

The game is an MMO, and being an ironman doesn't exclude you from interacting with other players. My philosophy is that if other players are able to use their accounts to hinder your speed, whether it be on purpose or not, then you should be able to use multiple accounts in order to increase speed. This is something that is done in other games if a two player mode provides advantages over the one player mode. I'll include some examples that I know of offhand.

1. Super Mario Kart - In this game any% (and probably other categories) are done in two player mode. Reason being is because it eliminates one enemy AI from the race reducing RNG, but furthermore you can exit on the player 2 screen at the end of each race allowing you to transition into other races more quickly.

2. Crash: Mind Over Mutant - In this game by playing in two player mode in a single player run if you mash circle on both controllers you can infinitely fly, probably because when a player enters the game they are projected in the air and if you were to do this in quick succession you would keep popping out from where you would be at from the previous pop out and you can rinse and repeat it to do several tricks to lower the overall time.

I'm sure there are many others, but I think you get the point. Using two players in a single player game mode isn't something uncommon, and I'm suprised that this is something that is looked upon with scrutiny for something such as an MMO. Also the argument that it isn't how the game isn't supposed to be played, or that it is against the "spirit" of the game is really a cliche argument. I really can't think of a commonly ran any% speedrun that is ran with the "spirit" of the game in mind, or at least how the developers intended the game to be played. Although this category isn't any%, I think the same principle is applied. Also SoA is a quest that is available to ironmen and is intended to be done with two accounts. So saying that multilogging is completely against the spirit of the game mode really isn't accurate.

I think if bone drops and ash drops are allowed to be picked up by ironmen, then that should be utilized and looked at as an advantage. If you think opening 50 doors while you run will save time then go for it. It is definitely a high effort, high reward strategy. This whole discussion reminds me of when Amiibo in BotW was questioned for its use. In the end they decided to keep it in since it was official hardware and people used them to make the game faster. Of course there were people who still decided not to use them because to them it seemed like it was against the spirit of the run, and in turn achieved slower times, the decision stood to allow them and they were listed under the same leaderboards. I think we should follow in the same steps, but perhaps some new rules to counter abusing multilogging such as having a friend on the other account transferring items and opening doors or even a clan. I propose that if multilogging is used proof of play on both accounts should be present, even if it is only a small window on the screen of the other client, but it is enough to prove playing on both accounts.

Gotta say I agree. I change from thinking only picking up other people's ashes being allowed to also allowing a diff account to open doors and such.

Question though, if SoA multilogging with an alt was used, would this be faster than what is done now? What would be swapped out?

I also don't think that separate categories should be created.

hi no multi log pls or separate categories

Is everyone OK with the following being considered not multilog for the time being:

¤ picking up others' ashes ¤ using other players' fires on tutorial island

Opinions have been voiced and I'd like to begin the decision process. Possible solutions I see (presented in random order, (I put them in a list in python, used random.shuffle to shuffle it, and then printed them in markdown with join. for the source look here:https://repl.it/MDDB) ¤ separate categories/subcategories ¤ allow all multilog ¤ ban all multilog

If there are other solutions please list them in replies to this post.

I plan on doing a poll in which players will react to a message in a discord channel only visible to those who have the "runner" or "verified" rank with a clearly indicated emojii to react with for every option. This will allow people to vote for multiple options. If you have any ideas on how to improve the poll please let me know.

Current status of thread: ¤ Discussion on excluding ashes/tutfire from multilog ¤ Find more options ¤ Polling mechanism discussion

So just to reiterate my point about picking up someone else's ashes; this is an MMO like EZScape said. That means using the game's features to your advantage. One of these features so happens to be that other people are playing at the same time as you. Jagex didn't restrict ironmen from picking up ashes from someone else's fire which means it's allowed under the rules of ironman. Going against the spirit of something in speedrunning isn't relevant. As speedrunners we go against the spirit of playing the game how the developers originally intended in the first place, again like EZScape said. Also if you're for using someone else's fire on tutorial island but against picking up someone else's ashes, that makes no sense to me.

Now regarding allowing other multilog things like alts to open doors and the possibility of SoA, I have mixed feelings but I'm definitely leaning on the side of allowing them for reasons mentioned above.

I don't think we should create separate categories because given the nature of the strats used, a category would just be made for the sake of creating a category for not liking certain strats.

I personally would still classify picking up others' ashes as multilog, but as a compromise, I would probably be okay with letting that go.

Using other players' fires on tutorial island is a toss-up, either decision (multilog or not) is fine with me.

I don't know the best way of implementing everyone's opinions (since they are differing ones at that), but as of right now, the polling mechanism within discord and having it be limited to runners only sounds like a good temporary solution.

We could have a poll question regarding each instance (should X be considered multilog, should multilog be allowed, should there be separate categories, etc.)

That being said, I would be open to hear other potential solutions to incorporating everyone's opinions and what to do as a result.

I don't see any difference with picking up another person's ashes and using someone else's fire. Both of those require someone else to create the fire.

I was initially against breaking the "spirit" of the game originally because I've played runescape for quite some time and have always stuck to Jagex's intentions. For example, the newspost for ironman mode (http://services.runescape.com/m=news/ironman-mode?oldschool=1) states "No help from other players; if you're an ironman, you are on your own." Although they left ashes in, I believe this is a glitch allowing help from other players. When a more serious glitch was found (https://www.reddit.com/r/2007scape/comments/552eyq/bug_game_breaking_ironman_bug_glitch/), Jagex took action and de-ironed all players who used the glitch at all. This shows they are serious about preserving the independence of ironman mode; ashes are known, but it's likely not worth the engine work to assign a player ID to each fire to ensure ironmen can only get their own ashes, and it only has like one use ever.

However, EZscape's "I really can't think of a commonly ran any% speedrun that is ran with the "spirit" of the game in mind, or at least how the developers intended the game to be played." makes me believe differently. It shouldn't be a matter of respecting the game, it should be a matter of going fast, like any SPEEDrun.

Therefore, my stance is multilogging is acceptable. Use all the fires, ashes, safespots, trades, scouts, and wine restocks that you can.

In order to keep the barrier to entry low, however, the categories should still be separated by a "multilog" tag like BOTW's Amiibos. Most new (and old) runners will not wish to get an account up to the status of being able to assist with shield of arrav or do the micromanagement across multiple clients.

(if we're sticking to the original spirit of the game, should we be using count check? chronicle? none of these were originally in the game)

Have fun farming 25 dead accounts for bones!

I suppose to avoid contradicting myself, I would technically consider using another person's fire on tutorial island as multilog as well.

You are right on that point.

Ironman accounts should be allowed to do anything a normal ironman accounts can do. If that includes picking up ashes, so be it. But multi-logging should not be allowed for ironman account speedruns. The purpose of an ironman is for the run to be done solo, so why should the speedrun bypass that notion?

Therefore all events such as doors being open, ashes being on the ground, etc... should be treated as rng elements. If they are deliberately controlled, a run should be voided.

If we are talking about regular runs (non-ironman), then anything applies in my opinion.

If we could play on an instanced world, we would, but this is not an option available to us. I think we have gotten away with loose definitions of multilogging for a while, but we should now put hard definitions on things. It is not unreasonable for a speedrun to have a short list of banned strategies/skips.

The Dark Souls series for example, alongside its many other rules, bans all online interactivity in order to keep the run simple: ("Online play with other players in any way is completely banned. Playing in offline mode is preferred to also avoid Vagrants and messages from other players.")

I would propose breaking strategies into three categories: Completely Allowed Multilogging Allowed Multilogging (With Multilogging Tag) Banned Multilogging

From here we have better options for allowing the community decide what goes in which category. My personal recommendation would be:

Completely Allowed Multilogging: Opening doors on a alt account

Allowed Multilogging (With Multilogging Tag): Cooking on another player's fire Shield of arrav Stocking a shop with a alt

Banned Multilogging: Picking up another player's ashes Picking up another player's bones Body blocking a boss

(Being able to pick up another players bones/ashes honestly just seems like an oversight by Jagex in the ironman system)

I will ask again because that's another person who's brought it up, how is using someone else's fire and picking up someone else's ashes different?

Both require someone else to make a fire Both can be avoided by making your own fire

Either allow both or ban both (it should be allowed)

To say it's an oversight at this point I don't agree with. They've dealt with problems from ironman mode such as general stores and tanking bosses so they could very well change it.

Like EZScape said, we should move away from 'spirit of the gamemode' arguments because that's what speedrunning is really. We're going against the spirit of the games.

voting no on this one

That said I'd like to present an idea that I think may have some extent of nuance: imagine we live in a world with instanced servers just for speedrunning. What if we allow only things that would be possible in such a case?

I think this reduces discussion to a smaller number of points.

1. doors being left open for you (saves time)
2. cadava/red berries already picked (loses time)
3. wines - in an instanced server the shop is always stocked so this could allow for stocking them yourself. The reason I am ok with wine stocking is because it's one of the biggest nuisances in the run and prevents scalability (racing becomes like way harder for example).