Currently there are 3 categories defined for this game on speedrun.com, which are as follows:
-Any%: Timer starts when the prologue begins and ends when you lose control after the final mission. -Any% No Mission Skips: Timer starts when the prologue begins and ends when you lose control after the final mission. Additional Limitations: no failed mission skips. -Classic%: Timer starts when the prologue begins and ends when you lose control after the final mission. Additional Limitations: no fast travel via taxi service, no failed mission skips, and ending C.
Next to any% there are two extra categories with their subsequent limitations. Let me state from the get-go that any speedrunning category (very) quickly loses its meaning once there are too many enforced artificial limitations. Just for completion’s sake I will list an example that I hope will illustrate that principle: think of an imaginery Super Mario Bros 1 category that involves warps, but not to world 8. You can use the same route as the normal any% route, but instead of warping to world 8, the rules would enforce you to warp to world 7. Yes, the inclusion of World 7 in the run would be fun. Clearly though, because of the very artificial and arbitrary prohibition of warping to world 8, this category would never be taken very seriously, let alone be included in the official categories for a website such as speedrun.com.
After the above it may perhaps be surprising that the category with the most limitations, Classic%, is the de-facto speedrunning category of choice for GTA V. It is the most popular among runners and is the default category on speedrun.com. However, to the mindset of a speedrunner, the limitations on mission skips and taxi travel are very intuitive. This is because they are in a sense game-breaking methodologies. Taxi travel involves calling a taxi whenever traveling of some duration needs to be done. Then instead of driving there (=gameplay), you skip the journey with the press of a button (=gameplay detracting). Note also, that speedrunning skill (journeying from A to B ) is replaced by RNG (taxi arrival times). Mission skips involve committing suicide 3 times in a row while on a mission. You can then skip the mission. I don’t think I even need to explain why this detracts from gameplay.
For these above examples it is fairly clear that they justify extra categories with their respective limitations. If these methods are used, they are pervasively present throughout the entire run, plus they are both very repetitive in nature. Therefore, a case can be made that they detract from the gameplaying / speedrunning / viewing experience. This is why there has been little to no debate about these additional limitations in the extra categories.
Now we get to the extra limitation though, the one that enforces which Ending is chosen. This limitation is incomparable to the other two and in my eyes even completely unnecessary and actually counter-intuitive from a speedrunning viewpoint.
If you are not in the know, the GTA V storyline has three different endings, which you are free to choose from: Ending A: Kill Trevor (default selected) Ending B: Kill Michael Ending C: Deathwish (kill off a bunch of bad guys)
The obvious impact on gameplay is that these are 3 completely different missions and that option C is by far the lengthiest option. The impact on storyline is that either 1 of the playable characters dies (A or B ) or that they all live (C). In comparison with taxi travel and mission skips, there is no clear reason whatsoever why ending A or B should be prohibited. Ending A and B are not game-breaking as they are not pervasively present and repetitive throughout the run. They are both run-of-the-mill missions, nothing more, nothing less. I’ve encountered two arguments for the enforced option C. One of them was that it is the moral thing to do. I had to laugh out loud when I encountered that one for the first time. Deciding GTA ruling on what is a morally ‘good’ in-game decision is quite the preposterous premise. It’d be comparable to being forced to adhere to statements in the bible when doing research on evolutionary biology.
The other argument was that no playable character in the GTA series has ever died before. Therefore, a case could be made that Classic% (the name refers to GTA old-school style) should use the option where all the playable characters survive, in order to be consistent with how previous GTA’s were played. I don’t think this argument holds much merit either. If you want to completely stick to how previous GTA’s were played you would not even be able to finish the game, as character swapping is not present in previous GTA games. Furthermore, the ending choice only has impact on what happens in the cinematics AFTER the run, which are technically not even part of the run as a showpiece.
The above reasoning aside, I will summarize the most important argument to get rid of the enforced option C in Classic % ruling. Unlike the limitation on taxi travel and mission skips, being limited to option C has no ground whatsoever from a game-playing perspective. Yes, another mission has to be played, but there is nothing game-breaking about that in and of itself. Enforcing an arbitrary and artificial limitation can only be justified when there is a very clear incentive for doing so. In this case that incentive is completely lacking. To revisit the Super Mario Bros 1 analogy, it’s akin to playing the game warpless AND having to shoot all bowsers. There is a good incentive for warpless (not skipping any levels), but not for having to shoot all bowsers. It’s of course not a perfect analogy, but I think you will get the point.
One more reason why this category needs to be put under misc. category.
Reminder that classic% is an arbitrary category which has been invented for only two reasons:
1) It is more fun If runners think ending C is more fun, then so let them. If you think it is more fun to run ending A and B, then run that. If you and other people submit enough runs it'll get its category. But of course you could send it the VC any% no duping way and just not do runs so the category will never exist.
2) It is more like classic GTA speedruns. This is the biggest bullshit ever since it is nothing like classic GTA speedruns and I'm not even sure why I am including this in this post. But to go in depth anyway: At least one protagonist character dies permanently in 3d era GTA speedruns. While this further backs up KVD's point, it is a meaningless argument for mentioned reasons.
First, I don't think Classic% should be the main GTA V category, it should be Any% or Any% no Mission Failed Skip.
Also, taxi warps don't really save enough time to justify making an "Any% no Mission Failed Skip, no Taxi Warps", and i don't see the point of forbidding taxi warps (I use them when it's useful in Vice City). A "Good Ending" category however, is a thing that have been around for decades in other speedrunning community.
Combining both taxi warps and good ending, making just enough differences to make me feel like it could be a valid category (still has a shitty name tho Kappa )
@ Gaël, the thing is that in by far the most of these games, the developers have made it clear which is the good ending. In GTA V, the border between good and bad is much harder to determine. In fact, one could say that GTA and morals are as juxtapositioned as Mother Teresa and Joseph Stalin.
At the very least, the enforced ending should be the misc. category instead of being part of the default definition of a category.
Another thing to consider is that with GTA IV, the first in the series to offer the player multiple endings, you're not required to pick a specific ending in Classic%, so why would you be required to pick a specific ending in V? I never bought into the ideology that Classic% is about keeping the speedrun in line with previous titles and/or their speedruns, but supporters of the required ending rule do, and in my mind, it would make much more sense NOT to require a specific ending simply because you were never required to do so in IV's Classic%.
On a different note, in my opinion, "Classic%" is about not allowing skips/warps which are available to the player at an almost constant rate. Also, I feel the name should stay because it's only a name after all and people in this community have come to associate the name "Classic%" with a GTA speedrun which doesn't allow "skips/warps which are available to the player at an almost constant rate."
Well spoken Kyle. Ideally I'd like to keep the name Classic% as well, just without the ending constraints. If that's not going to be the way of it, we'll have to just find another name for it eventually.
Ending C is forced because in other gta games main character didnt die, got it? Ok iam not GTA history expert like you but in which gta game main protagonist you control dies. Thats the good ending and is closest to Classic%. If it gets removed then we might aswell just sswitch C to B, because ending B is the fastest. In GTA IV Kyle as far as i remember both are bad so nothing to pick, in one ending Katy dies, in other Romans wife, they arent characters you control in the game, atleast as far as i know.
In that case Classic% shpould be no taxi warps, no mission skips, ending C, no special ability use.
Is there anything else someone is not ok in this category?
Worst case scenary those who dont speedrun GTA V right now wont speedrun at all :). I havent seen current new runners complaining.
GTA V is more complex then other gtas. and requires more rules so it looks like arbitrary. I want to see what other GTAV runners trthink of all this.
So let me see...instead of removing artificial constraints you'd be in favour of including more? Yeah, no. Then you might as well not play GTA V at all and really play an older version.
Anyway I think S. elegantly solved it by calling the category without an enforced ending Any% (Classic Rules). I'm fine with that. Next time I'll finish a run I'll submit it for that.
As i said for me Classic% is Classic which means keeping the game closer to older gtas and GTA V is more complex game, so in order to make it Classical it requires more rules, if its too much for you then too bad. Without them its modified and completely different, but hey enjoy gta 3, vc :)
As long as everybody play by the same rules i am gonna run the game no matter what. IF everybody will agree to rename/make Any% (Classic) category, i am fine with that.
From what i have heard nobody will run this game anyway, except couple 100% runners.
We should all wait for the PC version to discuss all of this.We have no idea if that's gonna come with a traffic density option and some other modifications, imo this is not the appropriate time to be changing things around since the PC release is right around the corner.
And another thing is more ACTUAL RUNNERS OF THE GAME should give their input on this topic, if you've never played or ran the game but you pretend on running it when the PC version comes out then you should wait and see how it plays out, then if you don't like it propose some changes, not just give suggestions based on you watching others run it, that's not gonna help as long as not all the runners agree, getting people that don't play this game to give their suggestions is not gonna help.
And that's my opinion on this OpieOP
[quote=ToriksLV]Ending C is forced because in other gta games main character didnt die, got it?[/quote]
Why should this variable even matter? Adding these types of rules just makes the category even more arbitrary.
[quote=Bosz123]And another thing is more ACTUAL RUNNERS OF THE GAME should give their input on this topic, if you've never played or ran the game but you pretend on running it when the PC version comes out then you should wait and see how it plays out [...][/quote]
More actual runners will just repeat what was said here and not give much of a different reason to actually refute/support this.
[quote=ryedawg]If rule changes are to ever happen ONLY THE RUNNERS should be able to vote on it not just people in the community who have no idea.[/quote]
For this topic and vote, I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to understand this game and why the rules are implied.
First off, obviously if someone confronted me about the game I speedrun and it's rules being stupid, I would prove that it isn't with facts. Second off, we (The GTA speedrunning community) was asked about this. I say this because this was posted on the GTA thread instead of the GTA V thread. Third off, I'm not refuting directly towards ending C, i'm just using it as a point to remove classic rules as a main category (Since no one will speak up and say something about it out in the open/public).
Some people and I see this as some arbitrary category trying to pass off as main category. You and pretty much all of the GTA V runners (maybe except for some new ones) see it differently. It's fine. Do whatever you like.
I wasn't trying to be a dick or anything, i'm just playing devil advocate to show why people look at this category the way they do.
Well then is settled, i sse Classic% as a main category because we beat the game instead if only stunt jumps etc. So enjoy your games we will enjoy our, and new gta vrunners run the game because they dont whine about everything. Havent seen them complaioning about arbitrary.
Looks like arbitrary is new favorite word for some. I wana see what Dekap and zoton thinks about this. Dekap started to run this game and i gues he made these rules for a reason. Without these rules category becomes a mess with random things.
Anyway i want too see what some other runners say before i continue.
Just so it is clear, I have actually played the game quite a bit and probably completed around 10-20 full runs in the early days (not that this is very relevant information). Thanks to Guy for answering correctly most of the points Ryedawg has raised.
I'd like to make one point clear as well though, speedrunning a game does NOT make it YOUR game. If other people decide they want to have fun playing with a different set of rules, because they happen to think some of the current ones are based on thin air, then there's nothing you can do to stop that. Not sure why you would even want to in the first place though, just live and let live. ;-)
Just for closure, I will state one more time why I think the enforced ending C is unnecessary. This is a speedrunning community yes? Then let speedrunning dynamics guide you in the rule making process. For example, as follows:
-Do mission skips affect the run severely? YES, they reduce every mission to triple suicide. -Do ending A & B affect the run severely? No, they are run of the mill missions which happen to be shorter.
The arguments to support enforced ending C have so far exclusively been based on feeling and personal preference; not one of these has any ground in terms of speedrunning dynamics: -"This is a more complete ending the other endings are rushed and shitty" -"Dekap started to run this game and i gues he made these rules for a reason."
My guess is that Classic% will remain as it is though, so keep your panties on. ;-) The name Any% (Classic rules) will probably be used for the run which I (and Meridian, and I'm certain others in the future) will be doing. Once there are video' ed runs of it which are submitted of course. Thanks for that suggestion S.
I used to care about the category but when DLC got thrown in, the whole category changed instantly. If DLC was never thrown in, I'd still try explaining why C is still the best option but now it's all pretty much moot. It shouldn't even be called classic% anymore.
With that said, i don't care either way, its only 18 minutes in a 7 hour run. Just make up your minds already so i can lower my times for free.
Sorry for being out of the loop in that respect; could you please explain how DLC has affected the run?
