This is a hotly-contested elephant in the room. Let's address it.
Should it be allowed to be used? Yes or no? Also, please explain your reasoning.
Even though I'm a new runner, I think I still have a small say.
They shouldn't be used, just so you can have a game that is vanilla as possible. You practically get handed free weapons as soon as you start the main story.
I don't think DLC should be used for speedrun, at least for regular Any%, if using them change significantly the run (just faster overall, or different strategies) it might be worth running and be another category (Any% with DLC) The same reasoning should apply for Classic%,but it's an arbitrary category so the reasoning could be different.
Also, if it's decided DLC are no longer allowed (which would most likely happen since there kinda was an unwritten consensus among runners not to use them until now), what should happen to DLC runs already on the leaderboard ? should they be removed ? moved to another category ? or should they remain untouched by the new ruling because they were legit runs that followed the rules as the time they were made ? (on a similar note, I remember someone saying on #gta that if one day 30fps on GTA SA was banned, 30fps times should stay on the leaderboard as legacy runs because the rules at the time allowed it)
Note: this is just my point of view, and because I don't intend to run GTA V it shouldn't weight into the decision to allow or not DLC usage
Allow DLC, free & paid. Weapons, aircraft, cars, etc. from DLC, ... allow them, in both Classic% & Any%.
Consider one of the most serious, well organized and respected speedrunning communities, if not THE most serious, well organized and respected speedrunning communities, "The Elite" (GoldenEye, Perfect Dark, and a few others). http://www.the-elite.net/ http://rankings.the-elite.net/
The runners of these games are competing for points on individual levels. You can look over the rankings pages and see how this works, if you don't already understand. The times you see for each IL are so optimized, EXTREMELY optimized...it's insane how optimized these times are. The point is, this community is doing it right, but where am I going with this?
Well, there's PAL (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PAL) and there's NTSC (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NTSC). Between GoldenEye and Perfect Dark, there are some individual level, WR times which will never be possible to obtain if you're not playing on the correct console (PAL vs. NTSC). It's all about the mostly minor, but sometimes major, difference on ILs between each version of the game. These time saves from these differences range anywhere from milliseconds to a minute+.
GoldenEye NTSC vs. PAL: http://rankings.the-elite.net/goldeneye/systems Perfect Dark NTSC vs. PAL: http://rankings.the-elite.net/perfect-dark/systems
You may be thinking, "Milliseconds???? Surely these differences which save milliseconds don't actually matter." Well, I'm sorry to tell you, but they do. I've looked into this in the past. I've also watched some of the best runners of these games, which you may have done also, and heard them talk about this exact topic, MANY times. Take my word, or go do some research. So, back to the point system and the point I'm slowly making.
They don't have separate categories for each console. A runner cannot get the WR time on an NTSC cartridge IL and earn 100 points, then go get on his/her PAL console and get the WR time for that same IL and earn another 100 points. There's only one category per IL and if you're unable to get a PAL cartridge, you're shit outta luck for ever standing a chance at some individual level, world record times, and if you're unable to get a NTSC cartridge, you're shit outta luck for ever standing a chance at the remaining individual level, world record times.
This community didn't come to a conclusion such as, "Some people don't have easy access to a NTSC console/cartridge, we better only allow PAL." (and then someone chimes in and says, "...but, but, but, what about the opposite? Some people don't have easy access to a PAL console/cartridge, I think we should only allow NTSC, or better yet, have separate categories." No, they didn't come to this conclusion. Instead, they did the right thing and had ONE category and allowed both NTSC and PAL to fight for WR times in this category. They stood by the belief that if you don't have access to this or that whether it's due to financial reasons, location reasons, whatever it may be, then you're SHIT OUTTA LUCK. "Sorry buddy, YOU. ARE. SHIT. OUTTA. LUCK."
The equivalent in the case of GTA V is: "What about people who don't have access to PSN?" "What about people who don't have access to Xbox Live?" "What about people who can't afford payed DLC? "What about people who can't even get free DLC?" "What about people who don't have easy access to internet service?" "What about people who don't have access to a SSD (solid state drive)?" etcetera, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera.................
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In all of these cases above, think of it in the same way the GoldenEye/Perfect Dark community does regarding PAL & NTSC: "Find a way to obtain that which you don't have, or you're out of luck." <--- This philosophy leads to a much, much more interesting speedrun. It makes everything that much more complicated. It makes a runner sit and ponder what lengths he or she will have to go to in order to achieve a precious world record.
By following in the footsteps of "The Elite", you're leading the GTA community down an even better road than it's currently on. Maybe you don't understand that "The Elite" is a very respected speedrunning community. They've been in operation for 14+ years, (shortly after the release of Perfect Dark for the N64). They know what they're doing, clearly, if this wasn't already clear from the fact that their community is flourishing all these years later.
Those of you, and I know you're out there, who are stuck in your ways and can't escape from your current opinion on this matter, need to realize the point I'm making here. I at first thought the inclusion DLC was a bad idea, but not any longer. It's time to "man-up" and at least give some consideration to these words. Maybe it wasn't such a good idea to go firing off shots at certain people without given this matter any real thought in the first place. (You know who you are.) You might be thinking, "I'll look like a real fool if I pull a 180` on this one, after all I've said and done." You might be right, but you've got to do what is right, regardless of the past.
Lastly, if the final decision ends up not allowing DLC, at least consider adding a separate category which allows any and all DLC in Classic%. IMO, this is the second best option.
An additional point regarding Vice City: Unless new strats are found which make the replay strats obsolete, a console runner stands absolutely no chance at getting WR in VC. The philosophy here is clearly, "If you don't spend the money on a PC, sorry VC console runner, you're out of luck." I completely agree with this attitude. Is this not the exact opposite of not allowing DLC because some people lack the ability of obtain the DLC? Come on people (the few of you), let's get real here.
@Gael
I asked Dekap last night how much time he thinks he could have saved on his PB/WR run if he had used the current DLC. He said around 10 minutes. In your post, you seem to be wondering how much of an impact using DLC has on the run. Based on Dekap saying "around 10 minutes", I'd say it doesn't impact the run enough to consider the impact "significant". A person watching a classic% run with DLC will never feel like they're not watching a classic% run. Using taxis and mission skips significantly impacts the run, it makes the run immensely less interesting, we all can agree on this. That's why classic% doesn't allow these things.
I feel the point of the Classic% category (for both GTA IV and V) is to remove everything which makes the run, as I said, "immensely less interesting". The name "Classic" should honestly be changed as it really isn't helpful in making sense of the category. It's not about "not using features which previous games lacked", but rather "not using features which makes the run immensely less interesting."
Things will be more difficult, when current gen and pc versions with forced DLC content are released.
Forced or unforced DLC content, both free and paid, shouldn't matter. A person has options. They can chose to play on last gen, current gen, or PC. Maybe certain DLC won't be available on last gen, but available on current and PC. Maybe certain DLC will only be available on Xbox One or PS4. Maybe certain DLC will only be available on PC. I made my point about Vice City regarding the replay glitch. My opinion on "The Elite" is that they optimally handle their leaderboards and time/point system. There's not really much more I can say about this matter. GTA V will be my speedrunning priority come the PC release. If at that time, the rules disallow DLC, that'll be fine by me. If the opposite is true, fine by me. Majority opinion should be what determines the rules. My posts in this thread are simply to state some valid points and opinions and see how it affects other's opinions regarding the matter.
i think until the xbox1 and ps4 versions are released we should all be playing without dlc weapons
Why don't we just add DLC as a variable so both are possible? (i.e. just like hearthstone has "deck list given" as a variable, see http://www.speedrun.com/naxxramas )
Well classic% (or the classic rules) are intended to make things more interesting by making the run slower. So i don't see know reason why DLC can't be banned in classic%.
I was against them but then i was thinking, lets make it simple and just use them, i havent used them in my runs but i have no preoblem of starting doing that.
The way I see it, Classic% is about not allowing that which removes larges portions of SHOOTING, DRIVING, and FLYING. Taxis in IV and V aren't allowed because they remove driving and/or flying. Autosave warps aren't allowed because of the same reason. DLC weapons just give the runner more options in shooting situations, that's another reason why they should be allowed. Anything which shortens moments of standing around doing nothing should also be allowed. An example is the clip capture thing in IV. The idea of Classic% shouldn't be about running the game with features only available in previous GTAs, but rather a mix of what Jolzi and I are saying above.
Edit: ...shooting, driving, flying, and running. If something adds more flying, thus decreasing the amount of driving and running, it's fine (such as the heli). A feature which only decreases any of the four while also not increasing any of the four, shouldn't be allowed. Death warps and mission warping are an exception as they are few and far between. If they happened CONSTANTLY, a rule would have to be put in place to disallow them.
DLC as an update are available in your inventory so you can save time by not buying them, but in next gen versions they will be available only at shops n stuff( not already in your inventory sicne first few missions like now, where i can save time y not buying them) so they still should be banned for using in speedruns right now.
I knew it wouldnt be so i am against using any gun that is available in your weapon wheel when you start a new game. Once and for all we need to make a strawpool for that and if against then any run using them will be denied.
Same thing wil be on pc, empty weapon wheel.
NOTE: I will use the phrase "DLC" like everyone else, but I don't like calling it that because many people assume this means "you are paying to save time". Also, on the PS3, the new guns/weapons are forced on you through the updates, you don't download them separately. I do not classify game updates as "DLC" (although technically they are content you download!)
First, before I reply to what ryedawg said, I would like to point out his Classic% runs he has been doing on the Xbox One have $500,000 added to Franklin's account from the start because he pre-ordered (which you can no longer do of course) and he was also trying out the rail gun, which according to the GTA Wiki "is exclusively available to those returning to GTA V from the original PS3 or Xbox 360 versions" which I don't know if this is true or not (ryedawg wouldn't give me a good answer to "have you linked your Social Club account up?").
If the last statement is true, then both of these things are unfair to do, because they either require you to have bought the game before a certain date, or own more than one version. I'm not sure if it's possible for ryedawg to remove the $500,000 getting added automatically though.
"it would be unfair to run on next gen or pc" We could also say that using replays on Vice City is unfair to people running on consoles because they don't have access to them, but we don't. These are things that allow you to skip major portions of the game; DLC isn't nearly that extreme. Cars have also been proven to be slightly slower in next-gen, does that mean last-gen should drive slower? The same with the patched glitches, should we not do them?
"leave classic with out dlc for the reason of every other gta game doesn't have DLC" We've already discussed that the name is arbitrary already. For this reason we shouldn't use checkpoints either. If I was feeling even more silly I could say "we can't use a certain car because it wasn't in the old GTA games" as well.
I understand people are like "why the hell are you allowing DLC in a speedrun" when they hear we allow "DLC", but these tend to be people that don't run the game, don't know the game and/or don't know the run (Joshimuz for example, seeing as he seemed to kick this off again). They also immediately think that this would be paid for.
I would be against the "DLC" if it was an unofficial mod (which it is not) or you were gaining an advantage because you paid (which, again, you are not). The only other argument I can think of is "they might not have an internet connection" but that's not something that is directly linked to this game.
There's probably more I can write in relation to this, but that's all I could think of right now. I really don't like arguing like this. :/
Well dates used DLC guns in Trevor%, so i dont know. Even thoguh i am against, i could agree too use. We need a strawpool for that.
a strawpoll isn't a good way to deal with this, a poll on the forum (like this one http://www.speedrun.com/gtaiii/thread/th1wm ) would be better, you would this who voted what, and maybe weight people vote (your vote should weight more than mine because I don't run the game, and maybe my vote should weight more than people that never ran any gta games)
here's what I thing about the DLCs, after re-installing GTA V on my PS3, as long as your ps3 in connected to the internet the latest update (with the DLC guns) will be downloaded then installed, without being connected to the PSN. For me, this shouldn't be considered as DLCs but as version differences (v1.17 vs 1.02 ....), if the gun are in your inventory not using them is arbitrary. I was told it was different on Xbox360 so I don't know . Pre-Order, Special Edition or Collector's Edition DLC should be banned in all case. if what zoton said is right ryedawg used the pre-order DLC to get $500k at the start, this should be banned. also the rail gun sound like NG+ to me and should be banned as well. (I'm not saying ryedawg cheated, he just pre-ordered the game, launch it as soon as it unlocked, did a run, slept and did another run. as anyone crazy enough to do 2 10h runs in one day would have)
In response to Zoton's 2014-11-20, 03:52 post:
I agree with every last thing you say. Additionally, advantages from PRE-ORDERING a game should NOT be allowed. IDC if it's considered dlc or not, it shouldn't ever be allowed in a speedrun unless a category is added which allows it.
Honestly, if you're a GTA V Any% or Classic% runner and want to use DLC, (not from a pre-order or a special, such as returning from PS3, or in general something which can no longer be obtained), just use it. JUST USE IT! Ignore those who don't agree and eventually these people will either give up and/or begin using the DLC themselves. Anyone remember the Cyberthunder vs. a handful of other GTA V runners "feud"? Yeah, we've seen it before. Guess what.....some, if not all, of these "other GTA V runners" are now using DLC. This is honestly getting silly. We all know DLC will be allowed in both Any% and Classic% a year from now. You'd be a fool to think otherwise.
Oh, and please don't include a column to state whether or not you used DLC during your run. It's not needed and can only lead to more division, which is never good.
