A fresh voting period needed to be started up due to recent developments.

You're voting on whether or not frame limiting should be allowed during the run. This includes both setting a limit before the run begins and/or toggling the limit on/off during the run. Before voting, I urge you to read through this thread: http://www.speedrun.com/gtaiv/thread/t2bv5

By voting within this thread, you solemnly swear that you've read through the thread linked above, read through this thread and all of the current posts, and have given the issue a large amount of rational thought.

The options are as follows: A ) External frame limiting should be allowed during the run. B ) External frame limiting shouldn't be allowed during the run.

Include your reasoning alongside your vote, if desired.

(FYI: The current rules of this run are as they were a week ago -- i.e., there is no rule regarding frame limiting AKA you can use an external frame limiter at the moment.)

A.

I've pulled this chunk of text from the thread linked above, as it's the most logical piece of advocacy for either of the outcomes which has been brought forth thus far.

*I think it's extremely stupid to disallow something that's capable with some piece of hardware and its "official" software. If there exists an "official" combination of the two which results in the capability to toggle frame limiting with a hotkey, it has to be allowed. I'm told "official" software for AMD GPUs includes the functionality to toggle a set frame limit with a hotkey. The question still remains, how can you determine if the frame limiting is being done with "official software"? You can't, unless we go to extreme verification lengths, which is ridiculous. With that being said, I think it's obvious even "unofficial" software has to be allowed as long as you're using it to perform the same functions that other, more "official", software provides.

This is the equivalent of a console being released which includes a button on the controller which toggles the frame limiter on and off. If a next-gen console included this functionality, how on earth could you justify banning it from being used?*

Does option "A" allow you to toggle or is it a permanent frame limiter?

People didn't seem against it until the term toggle was mentioned.

Both, as they both are covered by the logic in my block of text.

Although at first I was very optimistic for all this, I have since become pretty much indifferent. I mean, I'll vote for option A, because it will make the speedrun a little speedier, after all.

It'll probably be really annoying having to toggle the fps for every wait. My FPS rarely reaches 100 anyway. Sure, I'll get accustomed to it over time, but that doesn't mean it won't be a hassle. Now, just because I won't be using this to its full benefit doesn't mean I don't want it allowed, of course.

the ideal situation IMO, would be a agreed upon frame rate that runners are permanently limited to or even 60hz with vsync and then someone put the effort into making load removing splits.

However as that isn't currently the case, I would say A to avoid a shit storm but at the end of the day i will forget to toggle it anyway

I would get really tired really quickly from having to wait like 20 seconds for every loading screen as Vsync does, though.

A )

reasoning vsync is a bad meme, loading screen long time, memes, play the vidya to go speedy, shit storm averted back to speed gaming!

FYI: Ilias claimed his "official" AMD software was doing exactly what I refer to in that post. I've yet to get 100% confirmation that he was telling the truth. Regardless if there exists any official software which has this functionality, there's still the point that many pieces of "unofficial" software are allowed to be running during the run, all of which are clearly affecting your FPS to various degrees.

Nozlar mentioned that Fraps has the functionality to limit your game's FPS to the desired recording FPS upon toggling on the recording. Is this really all that much different from starting a high quality recording which drops your FPS upon toggling the recording on? Even if it isn't automatically dropping your FPS to a set limit?

Even without the logic of allowing whatever "official" software provides, there's still so much more extremely logical reasoning which makes it clear that disallowing mid run FPS limiting is laughable.

How many "workarounds" exist which will basically accomplish the effect of mid-run frame limiting? Many, and nearly every single one can be used and defended with "inadvertently limited my frames".

b) sorry if I misunderstood what is happening and I don't run the game so you can take my opinion with a grain of salt.

I don't think you should be allowed to toggle from whatever FPS you want, PC games that I see have this allowed have it built in (half life etc...). GTA4 doesn't have this built in, you're forcing the game through 3rd party means to limit the frame rate even if the software is "OFFICIAL".

I understand that forcing vsync in game makes the loading screens really long, but I think the better solution is to just run the game with vsync off and suck it up. Not to mention find a way to have the frame rate drop below ~60 during waiting.

edit: reading what S put, it makes sense for the limiter to be added so you can use software but not allowed to toggle on and off, FPS would need to be displayed for future runs.

B

I agree with odyssic.

B ) Compromises need to be made. External tools to work around it is silly.

If a skip X is found, then naturally you should do it. However if the skip means you cant do skip Y anymore, then that's a compromise you have to make. If you want to do skip Y, then you can, but at the cost of skip X.

If there was some external software that would let you do skip X without getting locked out of skip Y, would that be allowed?

In this case, skip X is less waiting for the clock and skip Y is waiting for loadings.

A ) Kyle makes good points in that there's probably some GPU out there that lets you toggle it to be shit temporarily. However, there's also mice and keyboard out there of which the software lets you assign a combination of keystrokes (scripts) to the extra buttons on the side of it. Scripts are banned in many games, whether done third party like Autohotkey, second party like Logitech Gaming Mouse, or first party, like the game's .cfg files. This includes the official mouse capabilities.

Doesn't take away the fact that side applications like downloads/windows update/PB videos/recording software/virus scanners/video calls/ethan's map tool/malware/etc do the same thing as a frame limiters.

The only real way to provide an even playing field is to have vsync on at all times, like the 3d gta frame limiter. Loadings shouldnt be timed anyways.

Therefore I would vote B, but I choose to abstain from voting instead.

@Odyssic: half-life's ingame FPS changing ability is just as sketchy as using external software, but (gold)source runners are notorious for allowing cheats/console commands during runs, so yeah.

Edit: According to Jolzi the long loadings BS is a vsync only issue, if this is true, then I vote C) Allow external limiters, but no toggling on/off mid run, since it achieves all the good stuff without the bad stuff. Not toggling it on/off means you're not really 'using' the tool.

I thought about this a fair bit. I can see both ways but in the end I keep coming back to the "high quality recording" argument and thinking about how many workarounds there are to lower your fps at any given time so it seems silly to ban external limiters wheter they be official or unofficial. All of this would be a non-issue if there was a working in-game solution but alas, rockstar coding reigns supreme.

I vote for option A.

A - Limiting your framerate using whatever software on a PC is like manipulating how well your PC performs. Since all computers are different, allowing people to limit their framerate would be the fairest decision to be made.

If option B would be chosen, people could find other ways around it. Either getting older hardware or manipulating their PC's performance by other external programs, that don't directly limit the game's fps, but keeps the PC busy. Use common sense, please.

A) For many many reason that some that have voted here and dont run this game don't seem to be fully aware off.

First off why do you want to limit FPS? Obviously limited FPS affects the bike handling and also pulling yourself up into the helicopter. That is one big problem that is broken in this port.

The ingame clock goes slower the higher your fps is. Even if you do not have 100+ FPS you will bleed time. 60 FPS which pretty much every run has continously makes the ingame clock go slower. It will only be 1 ingame hour = 2 real minutes if the frames are 30 FPS.

This affects all the wait periods. When ever you wait for a message or a call you will have to wait longer than you would have to on 30 FPS. With 100 fps you bleed 10 seconds in one ingame hour which adds up quite quickly.

Reasons why there is no other fix:

Using Graphics Driver

The reason why I say the "official" new Amd driver is not a fix is because first: No you can't toggle it with a hotkey. Obviously on a technicial level that could be implemented into a driver but that isnt even it's real problem. The frame target control is Vsync. It vsyncs the game to 30 fps which means the graphics card doesnt put out more than 30 fps. Like the normal vsync this makes every loading screen and cab ride take forever which is why it is not an option.

Vsync:

Like I already said above it makes loading screens take forever and above all makes you lag badly because your keyinput gets reduced by the lower fps. It is really slugish and broken and therefor not a fix. And normally you can't get the vsync below 50. Meaning you will still have a slower ingame clock.

Have the frame limiter always on:

With this you actually dont get long loading screens. But guess what if you still force the game to low fps it affects other stuff like key input. Which makes driving or even switching the radio or making a call harder than it should be because it lags so badly. If this issue wouldnt exists obviously this would be an alternative. But it does so this one is also out.

Frame Managment:

That is a nice trigger word and doesnt work. You can't just look into the distance and magicially lower your fps so the ingame clock goes its normal rate. You only have a choice between looking at the ground or up. The direction you look to matters only to a minimum. And again with this you cannot get the frames anywhere close low enough so you get the "normal" ingame clock. If you have 90 or 70 Fps, in the end you will still lose time.

Ingame Settings:

Why not max. all your ingame settings and destroy fps? If your computer is any good it will stay far over 60 fps, especially when it is vital because you wait. FPS only tend to lower themselves then if you drive or have action going on. And let's again not forget about the lag making this option fairly unplayable. You cannot speedrun this game with all settings to the max. And if you do you have a strong stomach.

PC games that I see have this allowed have it built in (half life etc...). GTA4 doesn't have this built in, you're forcing the game through 3rd party means to limit the frame rate even if the software is "OFFICIAL".

A computer has this ability "built in". With that kind of argument you shouldnt even be allowed to use an OS or a mouse driver because it is 3rd party. Hey you can set your affinity maybe even with a hotkey. Is that not allowed? It's literally limiting your hardware which many people do in San Andreas.

However, there's also mice and keyboard out there of which the software lets you assign a combination of keystrokes (scripts) to the extra buttons on the side of it. Scripts are banned in many games, whether done third party like Autohotkey, second party like Logitech Gaming Mouse, or first party, like the game's .cfg files.

This may be an issue with another game but completely doesnt fit in this argument. Using a script wouldnt work in this game. Because again frames flactuate and so does your key input making your script useless.

This is just adding hypthetics of stuff that is not a problem so you have to keep it out and foxus on the problem. I understand the need add something to this topic and maybe even vote.

But if you do not fully understand this problem, you should refrain from adding your vote.

For some reason S seems to believe that vsync would level the playing field. It would make it for everyone awful, which is really not the point. Loading times are counted, there is no load remover and even then I wouldn't play with vsync.

It is annoying that loading times widly vary which is why some streamers use 1.04 because it has the fastest loading times. That I guess is also part of speedrun tactics and very much legit. There is also one loading screen in bleedout that you can somewhat avoid by yourself.

If people pretend this makes a speedrun a tas they should look up the definition for it.

The game is not slowed down. It is working with the right ingame clock on 30. This speedrun has already enough boring waiting that does add nothing but boredom to the run. Minimizing it can only be a good thing.

IF and only IF the ingame clock decided to run faster on lower fps therefor making frame limiting sketchy, this would be an actual point to maybe disallow it.

But with a game that is so prone to lag there is no reason to make the life of the runner harder or more boring because that is what waiting is.

My opinion is and was always 1 physical button press = 1 actual button press. So using a keyboard software to remap a button is fine but bind 1 button to limit your fps during the helicopter phase and you might already save up to 100 button presses.

Warning: Irony ahead.

When we take because it's possible on pc in consideration, why stop at framelimiting?

All the settings are stored in a text file on your pc. Why not just change vehicle density with a single button press instead of taking all the way into the menu. I mean it's okay to change your framerate with a single button press instead of going to the menu too. So changing vd with a single button should be allowed because it's possible on pc.

But wait. Why stop at changing textfiles on your pc? How about some memory reading. No more opening the phone to get the current ingame time and delaying calls. No more checking for the time of the gay date or the interview. Always know if the security guard with the pistol spawned. Always know what the next call will be and determine based on that if it's worth waiting before a mission. Of course you're not making decisions based on your own knowledge. You're just doing what a tool says to you, but it should be allowed because it's possible on pc.

But wait. Why stop at reading memory, when it can be altered? Need a taxi? Spawn taxis onto the road. Need a fast car? Spawn a comet. Too many traffic on the road? Clean these streets man. Red light during street sweeper? It's green now. But not just on a button press. Everything fully automatic exactly when you need it because it's possible on pc.

And while we are at it. Let's mod the game and make everything but the first and final mission optional for the game progress. Nico is invincible and starts with unlimited ammo for every weapon because it's possible on pc.

okay enough

I am always in favor of tools that make run(ner)s more comparable to each other to reduce variance and have it come down to skill as much as possible. For example a load time remover would be such thing. But allowing everything because it's possible is going in the exact opposite direction and making runs less and less comparable.

While I don't mind people setting up their PC before gaming in a way they are most comfortable with. If the reasoning is because it's possible on pc my answer is B.

The reasoning has never been as broad as "if it's possible on PC, then it should be allowed". Every example you've given, Jolzi, requires the game's files to be either edited and/or monitored while the run is happening. Limiting the frame rate with an external frame limiter, mid run, does neither, just as starting a resource intensive task with a hotkey (high quality recording, overclocking, underclocking) does neither. In terms of affecting the frame rate, software that allows you to limit FPS is no different than software which allows you to overclock/underclock your hardware. Each can be done mid run, and when has anyone ever cared about the later?

CPU/GPU: Software interacts with the CPU/GPU and allows me to overclock/underclock with the press of a hotkey -> FPS increases/decreases -> affects the game = ALLOWED

Mouse: Software interacts with the mouse and allows me to toggle multiple DPI settings with a hotkey -> it affects the overall game experience -> all along, sensitivity settings sit in the menu, untouched = ALLOWED

GPU: Software interacts with the GPU and allows me to toggle an FPS limit with a hotkey -> affecting the game -> all along, v-sync sits in the menu, untouched = NOT ALLOWED????

Please, people, use some common sense here. When a new case comes along, you first need to look at each end of the spectrum, those that are allowed and those that are not allowed, and compare and contrast. Are you really coming away after doing this thinking that mid run FPS limiting is at the end of the spectrum which contains things such as modding your game to give you special weapons, cars, etc., using cheat codes, using scripts to perform a set of inputs at superhuman speed, editing files with the press of a hotkey, teleporting around the map using the trainer, etc.........or is this functionality sitting among things such as underclocking/overclocking the CPU/GPU, changing the DPI setting, using mouse button which has been bound to a keyboard key, starting a resource intensive task, etc., all of which can be done mid run with hotkeys, affect the game in various ways whether it's FPS increasing/decreasing, aim sensitivity increasing/decreasing, etc., all being possible with both "official" and "unofficial" software and all of these things have ALWAYS been allowed and FOREVER be allowed?

Not really everything. Like the vehicle density thing. Both big GPU vendors have game optimization tools bundled with the driver. They are supposed to change the ingame settings of games to an optimum of your pc, but they can change them to what ever you want. That includes vd.

So using bundled software to change fps is fine while changing vd isn't?

I'm not sure what exactly you mean. What software, other than a GTA mod, allows me to prepare a hotkey to change the VD to a set value, and will change the VD to that value when pressed, all while running the game and remaining in the game?

Edit: regardless, changing the VD with a hotkey is literally editing the game's files with a hotkey, while limiting FPS at the press of a hotkey does nothing of the sort. This is the main difference.

I won't dig too deep into this, since i don't have a current gpu to confirm things. But lets go with this example since you mentioned mouse drivers.

Most Keyboard/Mouse software allows you to bind macros aswell. For example a start/execute a piece of other software. It's pretty easy to make multiple config files with different vd and write a .bat to copy the needed one into the folder.

Can you say that a runner that uses something to limit his fps mid run is on equal terms with a runner that isn't? No because even if they have the exact same hardware, execution and rng, the person that toggles fps will have a better time in the end. Does using the mouse driver to swap left and right click give you an advantage over another player? No.

I know that limiting the fps is not the end of the spectrum, but it's certainly not at the start either. That wasn't my point with listing all those scenarios. I want a line to be drawn where things stop. If a new runner comes a long he can't be bothered to read 20 long forum threads of discusstion. He sees the rules on the leaderboard and the current wr run and maybe a few more. And according to that he might use his installed software to gain an edge in the run.

Things will need to be added to the rules after this poll. How would you word the rules if A wins so it doesn't end in the one person with the best use of other software has the best time.