Here's a question for someone to answer. Has the amount of traffic been increased on any of the PC ports of other games in the series, when compared to their respective console version? If so, can you provide an actual % increase?

For right now, let's say the above has not happened and all prior PC ports were identical to their console counterpart when it came to "traffic density". That would mean I have to stop arguing for a change at all. But, if all prior PC ports have indeed increased the amount of traffic by the same percentage (likely found within the files of these games, though, I can't seem to find an answer online), that would be "Classic%" should require an INCREASE in traffic density, by the same percentage.

So kinda very disapointed in the discussion right now. The way a discussion works is that you try to respond to other people points and explain why you feel they are in the wrong.

So far noone who wants the 33% traffic density has actually gone into discussing the arguments for it but rather mention that it should not be changed because if any current runners can change a category it would not work.

Right now we have two active runners. This is an opinion I didnt form out of nowhere. I resetted the game 2500 times and can't even count the time I spend in it. This doesnt make my opinion more worthy, but my experience shown me that the traffic density gets you further away from that clean run even for the best kind of players.

Have the people here who want the traffic density at 33 actually played the game at 1 for some time? Can you actually objectevely describe the differences or is it just a kneejerk reaction.

In December I tought of vehicle density 33 very well. I thought it was a good idea and getting fucked by traffic belongs into a game. That kind of mindsets works as long as you only go for a PB. If you actually try to defeat the game and get a time close to the possible it becomes a problem because you realize every time you get blocked by traffic, you'll lose time.

I cannot stretch the fact, that traffic density 1 doesn't remove the traffic. It doesn't affect cops spawns (actually makes it sometimes more difficult to escape the cops because they dont get blocked as often).

I for sure know that it wouldn't be fun when I come back to classic after any% and have to deal with 33% vehicle density. I understand why this rule exists, but like I said at the same time it doesn't make sense.

Console runs are not comparable and will not be comparable. We currently don't even have a category for console because noone does it and I doubt someone ever will. So why have a rule for it.

For the argument that traffic belongs into classic GTAs I already stated my point that in older GTAs traffic gets removed by one mean or the other. If someone would forbid the topdown camera for GTA3 it would be ridiculous. No reason to limit the game further.

What really changed with GTA4 are the cabs. Cabs defintely take something big out of the game and that is the routing inbetween missions and I agree there should be no fast travel.

Also another point I like to refute is the fact that your menuing skills are more important with a vehicle density that is not fixed.

No it isn't. Even in any% I only change the density about ~10 times.

In classic% you would change it literally nowhere and only if you need a quick car spawn but even so you normally get cars to spawn (like after Easy Fare) without a problem that you can use for the next missions.

I have nothing against a rule that would prohibit changing traffic density in a run because, like I said, it would be irrelevant and it wouldn't matter if it would exist in the first place.

I want to have a more open debate here that is here for everyone to see and not in IRC.

I want to see arguments against reasons for wanting it to see changed.

I put my SA ps2 dvd into my drive and checked. For the vast majority of the zones(~95%), the "maximum number of cars you can ever have" (quote from the file about traffic: gtasa_directory\data\popcycle.dat ) is 50% or 55% higher on PC (I used tools for my analysis).

I dont think having any% be with variables is good, that's what its any% for. Including variables in any% would be useless since it wouldn't invalidate the category in any way.

Instead have the variables only on the classic% leaderboards. (Which due to limitations on sr.com is not possible right now, but just ignore them on the any% leaderboard). You can ditch the warp variables and only keep the TD one, since (so far) everyone agrees that classic% == no taxi/editor/autosave warps.

Consider this. In the end I care nothing about traffic density yes or no, I'm just proposing a mid-way.

^ (S's post is in response to mine, which had been edited multiple times and then removed)

Final post from my on this thread/topic:

Actually, I really don't like the idea of having variables, at all. My campaign has been defeated, but I am extremely satisfied with my attempt. This means Classic% will remain the way it always has. No variables will be added to either of the categories. Any% is anything. Classic% is autosave disabled, traffic density set to 33, no fast travel via taxi service, no video editor warp. S, if you could remove both polls, edit the title of this thread to something more appropriate now, and remove the thread I started on the main forum, that'd be great.

One thing remains a mystery. Where is Dispersor's Classic% time and why did he or someone else remove it?

I do not possess the ability to delete threads (to my observations). I see someone else removed the poll threads, I've locked the thread in the main GTA boards.

I'm going to keep this open until Dispersor says something

I would be fine with the two categories remaining as they are now, of course. I would also be fine with things staying as they are but for adding a variable to classic% for vehicle density with two options: "33%" and "adjustable" (or some other word that means something similar.) Am I mistaken in that this would answer everyone's concerns? (except for Kyle's dislike of variables, of course.)

Feurigerilias, yes, I have tried vehicle density 1, and 100, and lots of values in between, and, as I've stated several times already in this thread, I find 1 boring, (and, not relevant to this thread, 100 very frustrating: gridlock everywhere, haha,) But somewhere between is most fun and interesting and this is how I played casually. Dodging traffic is fun. Being punished for shitty driving is fun. Wandering around an empty Liberty City is boring. As I've said before, Etholon had reasons for choosing 33%, and, as he got here before me, I followed his precedent. Also, just because I'm not streaming gta4 right now doesn't mean that I'm not playing it or that I haven't paid my stream dues. Finally, there was no debate on IRC. S had an idea and offered to implement it on the leaderboard as an example.

Traffic despawning tricks of the other gtas, (swinging the camera around, or using the top-down camera or whatever,) is not comparable to gta4's method. One is a skill that carries penalties for using, requires enhanced map knowledge, and isn't even guaranteed to work. The other is a menu option.

Patrick, thank you for your research.