Feedback needed: Updating the leader board rules
3 years ago
European Union

I have been doing some research into the RNG in Golden Axe and found that it is based on a timer that resets at the start of each level. If the timer is on the same value, you get the same RNG patterns every time. The timer increases on every frame of the game (60fps) so it is impossible to take advantage of it.

However, I have found that both the 6-Pak and Mega Games 6 versions of Golden Axe have a glitch with this timer. For the first 30 seconds of each stage, the timer is ignored and the RNG always has the same pattern. This is very useful for levels where you can reach the thieves before 30 seconds are up, such as stage 6 and stage 7. The thieves will always use the same pattern, and on stage 7 this is a fast pattern where the thief on the left runs along the top of the screen.

I have tested on all the revisions of Golden Axe I could find and only these two games had the glitch. Both the games are also region locked so 6-Pak can only be played on NTSC-U Genesis (US console), and Mega Games 6 can only be played on PAL Megadrive (EU console). The EU consoles run the game slower at only 50fps so they are not useful for speed running. This means that 6-Pak seems to be the best version of the game to use. I have created a video to try to explain my findings here .

The physical cartridge seems to be relatively common and cheap so I don't think it is any more difficult to obtain than a normal Golden Axe cartridge. The ROM files are just as easy to find as the regular game too. However, anyone playing the game on other platforms will be at a disadvantage, such as Steam/Wii/Xbox/Playstation, as there is no way to play 6-Pak on those platforms.

I think we should update the leader board to give visibility of which submissions are using 6-Pak. But I don't want to make any changes without asking everyone in this community their opinion, so I have created a poll here https://www.strawpoll.me/20361555 .

I will leave the poll open for a couple of weeks and close it on 30th June 2020.

I would also like to propose that we update the submission rules to make cheating more difficult. At the moment the rules are very lax and it would be possible for someone to use various tricks with an emulator to fake a good time. I think the rules on Sonic for Megadrive are a good starting point so I think we should copy those (https://www.speedrun.com/s1). These rules would limit emulator use to 2 known emulators where it is possible to show that no cheats are being used in the video. For other platforms it would be required to show a game reset and/or show the system menu for the console being used.

Again, I don't want to make changes without asking here first. I am mindful of making the rules more strict as new runners could be put off, particularly if they don't read the rules before recording their first run and get their submission rejected.

I have made a second poll here https://www.strawpoll.me/20361596 . I will leave it open for 2 weeks also and close it on 30th June 2020 .

Please comment with your feedback, I don't want to rush into anything or do anything that is not accepted by the community.

Edited by the author 3 years ago
United States

Thanks for researching this after our discussion of my hunch on my recent stream, the very nicely detailed video, and for creating this post :)

My thoughts are that its more of a convenience rather than an advantage, simply because of the ease of access that people have to the various versions of this game. I really don't think there should be separate categories based on what version of the game you are running on. The scoreboard will become cluttered with even more categories that probably aren't necessary. I do not think it is necessary to change the leaderboards personally, but at the very most, I think we should add which version of the game that was used to the scoreboard (6-pak, Original Cart, etc.), which seems to be somewhat common in other games like on the N64 for example, where they specify whether the US of JP version of a cartridge was used. I think this will make it apparent to those who would like take their speedrunning of this game a bit more seriously to consider using the 6-pak to avoid the RNG at these points.

Edited by the author 3 years ago
Winslinator likes this
European Union

Just wanted to add that I got a new copy of mega games 6 today and it works in my genesis. It has the rng glitch the same as when I tested with an emulator. So I guess it's not region locked, not sure why my other copy didn't work on my genesis. Both my copies work on my megadrive. Anyway, confirmed that the glitch is present with original hardware.

Also thanks to InTheMug for noticing something was different with the rng on 6-Pak. I would never have thought to test the 6-Pak without him telling me. This was his discovery really so sorry for not crediting him originally.

United States

No problem at all, it was a communal effort :)

European Union

It has now been 2 weeks since I posted the above polls and I have updated the leader boards with the changes that won the vote. This doesn't mean this is final, we can always re-discuss and change the leader boards again if anyone feels it is necessary.

  • Emulator game rules added (under Game Rules tab of rules - Links to allowed emulators added to resources section)
  • New option to choose game version (normal or 6 Pak) added to leader board

These rules will be enforced for new submissions, old submissions that have already been verified will stay as they are.

Thanks to everyone who participated in the voting.

InTheMug likes this
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