Maxed and Improvable Times
There's been some discussion in the discord server today about which times can be considered "maxed" or "unimprovable" with our current strategies and knowledge.
There were also plenty of suggestions about which levels are possible to improve on with current strategies. The details are below:
7 agent times are widely considered to be maxed, with at least another 2 agent times probably maxed (B1, Depot). Apart from those, all SA and 00A times are improvable with just better execution rather than resorting to any esoteric TAS strategies ;).
Some of those SA and 00A levels are down as 'maybe' as they are underplayed and it is unknown if those times can feasibly be improved.
Feel free to post any suggestions, questions or comments right here.
Tier List
Retroflex has also been working on a tier list with the help of others:
(updated 7th July 2023)
The tier of each record represents the perceived difficulty of achieving each time, with Tier 1 the most challenging and Tier 8 the least.
Newer players are encouraged to start with the lower tiers first. Definitely get Runway SA 22 while you can!
if cradle 33 is a tier 7 im hanging up the boots hahahaha that bastard took me too long xD
Normally I would only keep track of the records, but I had to create an acccount to comment on this thread...
As someone who played the entire game multiple times and who has been on the speedrunning scene since 2012:
Dam 0:50 is tier 6 at best, it is the easiest speedrun on the game. All you have to do is run to the end and keep doing it until you reach a perfect RNG for the time of 50 seconds. It requires no skill at all.
Runway 0:36 should be tier 6 or 7 too... It is slower than freaking N64 35 strats... No one had the patience to do it? Alright, but the fact that it is slower than console when playing on 60 FPS should make it one of the lowest ranked tiers.
I don't see why Bunker 2 00 Agent is tier 1, it is a tied record, therefore, already "not so hard"...
Streets 1:09 should be lower tier as well. So does Depot Agent, it is literally only luck based. Just play it until you get it.
All Train records should be tier 3, the level is just run and shoot, not much skill involved.
Control records should be tier 5, at least Secret Agent and 00 Agent. Secret Agent is slower than N64 for love of Christ...
Cradle 0:34, another time slower than N64 should be in a way lower tier too...
Aztec Secret Agent should be tier 1 too, it is the hardest level in the game...
"Dam 0:50 is tier 6 at best, it is the easiest speedrun on the game. All you have to do is run to the end and keep doing it until you reach a perfect RNG for the time of 50 seconds. It requires no skill at all."
By that logic 0:52 is the easiest speedrun on console then?
"I don't see why Bunker 2 00 Agent is tier 1, it is a tied record, therefore, already "not so hard"..." It's only tied after I spent something like 20+ total hours playing the level, which has a massive amount of both skill and luck might I add
"Runway 0:36 should be tier 6 or 7 too... It is slower than freaking N64 35 strats..." I used the OG 0:36/0:35 strat from ~2007-2015, though 0:35 is obviously possible, and tier 5 probably isn't unreasonable for 0:36
"Depot Agent, it is literally only luck based. Just play it until you get it." That much is true, but running into a wall for close to a month is about as mentally taxing as it sounds
"All Train records should be tier 3, the level is just run and shoot, not much skill involved." I wish :(
"Aztec Secret Agent should be tier 1 too, it is the hardest level in the game..." A level being hard doesn't automatically make it a higher tier, additionally it was a very low 1:20 with like a 1 second wait for the guard destroying the mainframe into the vents
Also these tiers are not relative to console records, only to themselves
"Also these tiers are not relative to console records, only to themselves" I understand that, but sorry, a time played at 60 FPS, in 2023, with all the knowledge the community has gathered since this very 36 was beaten on console, being slower than a 2009 N64 time, should notbe any tier higher than 6... It is understandable if no one wants to do r-leans, but this does not make the record hard to get... Especially when you consider all the facilities you all have playing at 60 FPS, and all the knowledge the console community has gathered. The same thing goes for Control records...
"That much is true, but running into a wall for close to a month is about as mentally taxing as it sounds" I cannot see why you are taking human factor in consideration, when human factor is something that varies from person to person. You may find it "mentally taxing", other people may not. Human factor is something trivial to be considered when you are making a list that, let's say, "applies to everyone". If it was YOUR list, it would be alright...
"I wish 🙁" I did not understand that much... What is more to Train other than run and shoot? Other similar levels like Silo, Facility or Streets at least have their particularities, requiring you to pause, complete specific objectives, their unique ways of boosting... Train you only shoot your way until the end, and wait holding strafe in case of Secret Agent or 00 Agent.
"A level being hard doesn't automatically make it a higher tier, additionally it was a very low 1:20 with like a 1 second wait for the guard destroying the mainframe into the vents" I can see that, but still, it is a record much harder to achieve than a lot of other records you all put in tier 1. Only one that has played Aztec with optimal strats know how hard it is to even get close to complete an objective there...
In addition, I want to clarify that my goal is not to compare those records to N64 records. But we all can assume that just playing the game at 60 FPS is enough to have better times in all levels (or at least tie the N64 times). So, if a time is slower than N64, it is more than clear that it can be improved, and when the record is literally 9 seconds slower than a console time, and slower than a record achieved in 2009, I cannot see how it is ranked in any tier above than last...
"By that logic 0:52 is the easiest speedrun on console then?" Both you and I know very well there is no way to compare a console time to an emulated time played at 60 FPS... Console speedrunning is way harder, and again, we both know that for a fact, it involves way more than simply running to the end (i.e avoiding lag). 0:52 took 15 years to be achieved, and took nearly more 7 years to be tied. The 0:50 time here has been tied multiple times in a short window of time. And still, Calle proved my point that the level is just an exhaustive grind... Literally any skilled console player could get that time if they just spent the time needed. Boss original 0:53 was tied exactly in that way.
"If it was YOUR list, it would be alright..."
To quote the thread here: "Retroflex has also been working on a tier list with the help of others"
Just happened to come across this thread and as a top 10 for the main Goldeneye rankings, I have to say I'm a bit surprised at the criticism that DemonDragonKing is getting. He is completely justified in saying that console speedrunning is much harder than 60fps speedrunning, which I can personally testify to. Back in 2018 when I tried 60fps runs it was so easy that it just wasn't fun for me after a while. And even some of the knowledge you carry over from console runs doesn't necessarily apply to 60fps runs. For example, I discovered that, without lag, you can just spam the start button for quickpauses on levels like b1, as opposed to a skillful, timed quickpause on console. This allowed me to untie B1 agent 15 in like 5 minutes.
As for the tiers themselves, I think DemonDragonKing has made some excellent points that you should all consider instead of just writing off. I also find it strange that B2 00 is tier 1 when it's tied. We have plenty of records on console that are untied and aren't tier 1. For example, Depot 00A 0:45, a 4-year-old untied which is arguably a better time than any 60fps time ever achieved, is rated as a tier 4 time, and most GE players would agree. I also agree with DragonKing's sentiment of Streets 1:09 and Dam 0:50, I'm pretty sure Dusky caked both of those times back in the day.
Anyway, I just wanted to come over to this corner of the GE speedrunning world to give my thoughts. I'm in no way trying to take away the fun of 60fps speedrunning. Just don't write off someone's opinion because they're some complete rando, because at the end of the day, they may be right.
TBF tiering shouldnt be compared across games (Retro did mention that it wasnt) otherwise all 1964 times would be t8.
and all Elite times would be t8 if compared to SM64 runs, its apples and oranges.
Copying what I said on discord
Yeah I think a levels "tier" should take into account two variables... 1. How long it would take to achieve the time starting from 0 knowledge of the game and... 2. The amount of emotional strain incurred during the grind (for instance, a time may be quick to achieve but is fraught with uncertainty and lack of completions/pbs)
Something like depot a would be highly unskilled but very emotionally taxing. Imagine the mental illness required to play for 23. Depot then would be high in degeneracy points, as it were, and, should be assessed as a relatively high tier because of its sheer moral inadvisability (if you are playing this you are hurting yourself and likely those close to you).
These discussions can help guide players in setting realistic goals and focusing their efforts on areas where there's room for improvement.
