Forums  /  Final Fantasy  /  Dissidia leaderboards changing moderators (Locked)
  SmartkinSmartkin

Good day to everyone reading this o/ This post will convey all the problems that the Dissidia community is having right now and why some of the current moderators in charge of the boards should be replaced. To start things off, the community is quite small but the way some things have been handled were a complete nuisance to say the least.

Our first concerns started raising way back in November 2017. Oméga Phénix joined the community server and wanted to check if anybody in the community was interested in running a new category
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/403600592276160522/422040452410376201/image.png

But such question was met quite unfriendly with the following reply from IndDragPack(who is one of the current leadearboard mod at the moment) https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/403600592276160522/422040500372242432/image.png

A few moments later IndDragPack apologized for his reaction(stuff happens, we all have a bad day here and there so it was completely fine)
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/403600592276160522/422040659180912651/image.png

However, it did not stop there. A few months later Mizzow got a new record time so as it usually goes you congratulate your fellow runners, Leo just said "GG" but IndDragPack's reaction was something that noone expected https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/403600592276160522/422039342513651712/image.png

Not long after theat Leo was banned from the server. Which caused everyone to be confused and wanted some kind of explanation how was this even handled.
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/403600592276160522/422039414168879114/image.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/403600592276160522/422039631010463754/image.png
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/403600592276160522/422039759699968001/image.png

However, the only reply we received was from Crrool
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/403600592276160522/422040272688513055/image.png

Instead of having a proper converstaion with the community, they just decided to ban him. Such actions were viewed by many as rude and unacceptable. Due to all that the community got split and now we have 2 seperate Discord servers.

Finally, when Dissidia NT came out some new runners appeared, specifically MASH, TheCelticZ and Ultronimus. Of course since the game was new and fresh, categories and rules were supposed to be defined. Sadly, instead of speaking with people that want to run the game, rules and categories were instead discussed behind the scenes.
https://i.imgur.com/mFym7sv.png

That led to a lot of misunderstandings and arguments.
https://i.imgur.com/aD8pvoT.png
https://i.imgur.com/hMlweLC.png
https://i.imgur.com/J4IDCsC.png
https://i.imgur.com/5xCEJpe.png
https://i.imgur.com/nOkAp8S.png
https://i.imgur.com/x1El9Xg.png
https://i.imgur.com/lc2E6fa.png
https://i.imgur.com/xLhM12s.png
https://i.imgur.com/2ojXay4.png
https://i.imgur.com/FQjVkVt.png

However, when all of that came to the somewhat proper conclusion? Setting up the boards was still for some reason a big problem which led to the following argument.
https://i.imgur.com/j8TDifW.png
https://i.imgur.com/f9wimkU.png

P. S. from author:
I hope this represents the current situation the community is in and gets resolved as soon as possible. Everyone and especially Dissidia community members are welcome to discuss this in an adult manner.

Thanks to Oméga Phénix for providing the screenshots from some of the discussions that were later deleted.

Thanks to Leo for proof reading.

Leonis07Leonis07 and 0megaPhenix0megaPhenix like this. 
  MLSTRMMLSTRM

Not that I think this is needed, but just a precaution.

Don't turn this thread into a witch-hunt, or it will be locked.
Don't start flinging around insults or posts that don't add anything to the discussion, or it will be deleted.

Please act like adults, and only post here if you are involved in this discussion, no need to turn this into a peanut gallery.

IndiIndi, 0megaPhenix0megaPhenix and 3 others like this. 
  MASHMASH

While I can understand that runners that have had a longer and non-positive experience, I don't think replacing every mod is nessecary unless they would be or have shown unable to meet and maintain the community they should be representing or have or shown disinterest or lack of involvement from their position. Restructure could be middle ground if needed as there is currently a large lack both communication and understanding between both the mods responsible for the boards and the runners. Everyone does has their own valid points and opinions but as a community things should been done respectfully and logically as to fit the need or current situation. From my current experience there is only a few interested runners such as my self for DFF NT and only between us have we had some sorta civil discussions about things. I very much dislike any non-positive interactions and while not everyone my have intended it as such it has come to that point. A big issue with having these problems in communities from experience stems from the leadership that they have and their ability and understanding of what the community wants or needs to be done to maintain it.
Currently the community leadership does not allow for the community to be self reliant and coherent with the leadership team. My thoughts on a possible way to help with this would to usher in new leadership from interested parties and work with the existing team or if the existing team is willing to step down that's fine but at least have more active and interested approach towards to community in the most positive way possible. This is only an idea based on my own thoughts and experience but other avenues could still be explored. I just know that currently there is a division amongst the community regardless of its size.

SmartkinSmartkin likes this. 
  0megaPhenix0megaPhenix

My thoughts on the matter are abundantly clear in the screenshots I shared with Smart. For as long as I can remember, the current admins (or two of them) have shown nothing but pissy behavior, especially when I contested their knowledge of the game with my words, or my runs that beat WRs at the time. I am not trying to start a witch hunt as you say, MLSTRM, I am merely stating a fact. Whether things can change or not, I have no clue, and to be frank no hope in that regard. I mean, this was transparent in the rules that were removed of the old dissidia discord:

"Don't discuss or debate with an admin"
"If an admin asks you to to stop a conversation (for example when it gets to offtopic) do it"

So yeah. I am not expecting anything. If concerned people want to air their grievances on anything, feel free to do it, it's better to talk than to keep it in and let it turn to poison. However, I am not going to work on the game on the previous discord. And that decision is final. Whether leadership for the srdc leaderboard changes or not, it truly doesn't matter to me to be honest, as Mizzow, a fellow runner said, I just want to play the damn game, with no drama. So whether i submit my times to srdc or not, I don't care. I know my worth on this game, and srdc holds no authority. When you (Leo) get banned because you say GG to another person, there is something seriously wrong.

I can express my thoughts in more details, if somebody wants me to, but when I come back to speedrunning Dissidia, I'll do it alongside people that have the same vision of the game and the community than me. And at the moment, such people can be found in the new discord.

SmartkinSmartkin and Leonis07Leonis07 like this. 
  IndiIndi

Okay I guess I'm ready to give my 2 cents into this "discussion"

First of all: YES I did mistakes, yes I handled some things very poorly and yes I took some things more personal than I should have done. I was not always fair to everyone and was probably just scared that someone comes along and takes what I like and love. Beeing responsible. I know that I made my mistakes and I truly wanna apologize for that to everyone. To the mods that had to bring me down, the runners that I "attacked" and "scared away" and even to the other people like MLSTRM who got involved into this.

But what makes me really said is, that by reading all the stuff here and the way it was posted this really feels like a witch hunt. With me beeiing the witch. You can be as honest as you want. But not to admit the mistakes you made is a lie to yourself and everyone involved into this. Yes I did mistakes but so did you. And blaming only me on this makes is even worse. Let me explain what I exactly mean.

Long Time ago someone submitted a run. And because I'm a "very bad mod and have absoloutly zero knowledge about the game I'm moderating", I asked something about the run, sarcasm off
https://puu.sh/zFidP/2171a53014.png

https://puu.sh/zFieK/ff44db4525.png

No wonder I have to get suspicious about people...

Then the same person found out the precustimization. What that means. You go into customization before you start a story, that way you can preequip your character and skip textboxes. Guaranteed no one ever equipped something before but the textboxes where mashed away. It was a huge discussion and in the end we decided to ban it. But what about the runs that already did that we simply said this:
https://puu.sh/zFkzH/4b5f6cf060.png
Reason we decided that within the admin team. If you skip the texboxes before hand you save 3 seconds. Not banning it would give you the option to allow preequip cause Banning the prequip but allowing mashing the text boxes away seems silly. So we simply banned both.
Another thing that bothered me at that time was a very bad behavior from a runner who not only "faked" his early submissions (which I honestly dont care but still think is very weird to say the least) and then even said there is something else to exploit but beeing bitchy as he is:
https://puu.sh/zFkvB/3ba187189a.png

If you think this whole drama was settled you are thinking wrong. Cause that topic was brought up a month later once again. Just to get attention? I dont know why.
https://puu.sh/zFkt5/a720f1f7ae.png
Yes even one of my runs was a victim of the pre-customization but it was there before the rule change and got retimed with the additional 3 seconds. So no need to bring up the discussion again. I was very done at this point hence my harsh reply.

Next up let me say something about the strawpoll. I already apologized for that and I'm doing now again. But point was back there that making a strawpoll felt we are in the need and we are forced to do it exaclty like you want. On top of that there was a harmonic and simple discussion a few days before where I stated that we can talk about this in the Community Meeting where EVERYONE WAS INVITED. Not to mention that the category didnt exist until then.

About that meeting:
I announced the meeting on the 17th of october with following post:
https://puu.sh/zFiVl/045367231c.png

Pretty important is the point: "If you think there is anything that needs to be discussed or should be added to the agenda let me know."

We had the Voice meeting on the 28th of october. We even made minutes for the people who didnt attend.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1tYIfUQYLaRprFeOj1CTJdIRH-fPG89IQnyi0e7v4xHQ/edit
Those minutes where also posted in the announcements channel with the note: "If you have anything to add or to suggest in generall feel free to let us know. More informations about the things we discussed ---> Soon TM"

I should also mention that we had a textchannel during the meeting just for the meeting. So the people that are not able to attend the voice meeting could still give feeedback in there.

No one ever came back to us and complained and/or suggested other things so we thought its all gucci. We planned a community showcase with the things discussed in the meeting and all was good. Then this happend:

https://puu.sh/zFhJW/17ed84e14a.png

You can have your own opinion but two things. 1st You cant go out say something without even properly explaining it. This is just a dickmove. If you would have properly explained it we could have talked about this and made a decision. 2nd Between the Meeting and the Announcement where about 4 weeks. 4 weeks where NO ONE said something, complained, or even did something that could have prevented the discussion before it started. Not even people who where in the meeting and could have said something. The person that complained first was not in the Voice Channel during the meeting. However he was typing in the meeting channel and didnt said anything against the choice of the Showcase Channel. And even then there was enough time where people could have said something. Nothing happend.
But still people complained when it was "to late" and even told us what we should do:
https://puu.sh/zFhUv/8a0d216b95.png
https://puu.sh/zFhVQ/3c93c88991.png

Talking with the community okay. Having civil discussions, okay. Changing something that almost everyone already agreed on and no one else complained in time. No Way!!!
I think somewhere and sometimes we have to draw a line between the people who decide and people who make decisions.
And this has nothing to do with proviing power or the likes but there are people who have to take responsibility. Not everyone is a moderator and there is a reason for that. @MLSTRM correct me If I'm wrong but at least thats my PoV!
We said simple and clean that we agreed on the BSG channel for the showcase and that we won't change it back.

Reason why we throw the BSG Channel out as an idea: Crrool (Admin) is one of the organizers of the BSG Channel. I was a Staff member at that time aswell. The BSG Channel is a decent sized marathon channel and has hosted similiar events before. RPGLB was out of the race cause (we also discusses that option in the meeting) we felt Dissidia is not enough RPG to show of his "Limit Break" HighFive for that Joke please 4Head *

Anyways the Community Event never happend cause the drama came first. To make one thing clear Crrool only KICKED and not banned Leo simple because of this part:

https://puu.sh/zFjEa/d3c0cedc19.png

First of all. I apologize to Leo for my reaction. As I said earlier I take many things to personal (That is my problem and I'm working on that). But that was or at least it strongly felt like a provoking action directed to me. Reason for my "Rage" or more like prove for that is that He already congratualted him in stream. Why doing it again in discord. Without anyfurther informations. If Mizzow would have posted it by himself it would have been fine. But the way it went felt like a provocation.
The reason for the kick was simply that he stepped over the line of disrespect mutiple times. Once again I apologize cause my reaction was over the line aswell, but I would have done that no matter if I would have been a mod or just a runner. I'm very sorry what happend but I refuse to admit that all this was only my fault. The escalation that happend afterwards was predictable. But everyone has to admit that the way the non-mods acted wasnt the friendliest either. I cant speak for Crrool but I will for myself. I havent said anything about this in the Discord. Because I was both mad and sad. I felt I'm not in the right level to say something without escalating it more than it already did. And once again I was really depressed.

Cause the only thing I ever wanted is to make this speedrun popular to make it great to make it big. Everyone mentions only the bad things I did but no one ever mentions the things that I did good. For example starting on making guides, creating the Discord and not to mention. If it wouldnt have been for me this whole community would probably still not exist. When I started the LB where a mess. No one of the admins even speedrunned the game in at least a year and the timing rules where not existing. Everyone was using different timing methods and it was me who went to the mods and was like "Yo I wanna speedrun this game but with all this crap here I dont want do. Lets make it unify for everyone how about this [...]" Thats why I became admin. Because I stepped forward did something no one ever cared about.
But getting blamed from people who are not able to admit their fault at all this and even taking the drama out to places where they dont belong is as childish as my behavior. Not to mention that some people seem to trigger me and cause the drama on purpose just to see me explode cause they want me to lose my job and even go thusfar that they blame me during a live marathon run for the things I do.

About the estimate:
https://puu.sh/yYBDo/3cf7536f3e.png
About an additional grinding session
https://puu.sh/yYBF5/95a46073a3.png

A quick word about the NT part. I think all of the people involved in this "drama" realized that it was a chain of miscommunication and talking past each other. Yes Shinoda and myself talked about our thougth regarding the rules. I dont even remember where we did that. Fact beeing I posted them as an idea, a suggestions and stated mutiple times that we are not implementing these rules cause they were just ideas nothing more. We were even told to post out ideas and thoughts. It escaletd cause not Mash nor myself understood what the other person actually means. We had a privat discussion about the drama and apologized and no everything is good.

To end this up (cause I have no idea how long this is but I can imagine very long ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ )
I do apologize for my bad behavior once again, I do apologize for the things I poorly handled expecially the NT Boards and I do apologize to everyone who had the need for a new home.
BUT one thing I have to make clear. I refuse to admit that this all happend because of me. It was not only my fault as everyone played their part in this. Especially the people who took the drama to levels where they dont belong (talking about: Running to the sr.com mods without escalating to OUR Series Mods first aka Deln and MLSTRM)

I'm not forcing people to come back. But you should know that I always only wanted the best for this community and I'm willing to work more with the people in the future. But this doesnt work if we have two different discords and communites and dont respect each other. Our enemiy are not our fellow runners. Our enemy is the Time and the RNG.

Phew. I think I have said everything I wanted to say.
So have a nice sunday take care and I hope to see you back somewhere, sometime, somehow.

Best regards

IndDragPack (or Indi for short cause people still dont know how to speel my nickname or use my full name DansGame)

p.s. I think this is more than a wall of text but #SorryNotSorry ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
p.s.s. If you find grammar mistakes feel free to keep them. I heard you can sacrifice them for better RNG SoBayed

MASHMASH likes this. 
  MASHMASH

Mistakes happen but learning to work with the good and the bad of the community is important and that is why its better to try and work with them regardless of our own personal opinions tho we can at least and should feel free to say them and find some sorta common ground to move forward. I for one will not blame a sole person as there is allot of people at fault and perhaps self as well because of miscommunication barriers with the little knowledge I had at the time. My only goal was to find people interested in DFF NT and work with them on the game and saw that the boards were not set up and that were asking for interested people to share and join the community. I thought I was walking into a welcoming community but that seemed not the case at the time due to still hostile personal issues or past interactions that did not get resolved in a positive way. Being someone who was caught in the middle of the past and recent ordeal puts me in a very odd spot compared to how I normal deal with things with communities, I did seek out the Series mods to ask about the current and apparent past issues and was hoping we could get a resolve and just for general guidance on how to try and get people to reach common ground its rather annoying trying to stay neutral in a hostile situation when i can't really do or say much to help move it in a positive direction when some may be refusing to do so based on previous experiences. Each person should not be treated poorly based off another's actions or from previous experiences, things changes people move on and good and bad happens. The best thing we all can do is work together as best and as positively as possible to not hinder nor discourage others as this is a huge thing that steamrolls in directions many will have not thought of and very negatively impact everyone around it. I'v had my share of community drama I was not perfect neither no one truly is but everyone should try and learn from another positive stance or outlook and especially try to work with people who want to offer help. Allot of issues like I have said before in communities starts with individuals and then if leadership is not taken accordingly in a much as possible manner then things can become far worse even more so over time. Leadership roles such as a mod for a community or admin whatever that may be have a large responsibility to REPRESENT their community and the members part of it regardless of size or personal views on the individuals but more as a whole. These people should never work alone but with others and should always be seeking out and doing what they can for their community not for themselves. Just because you have power does not mean you should use it, in fact the only time it should be used is for positive ways to better the community based on the needs and wants at the time. Just because some bad categories get made or something happens that would alter or obsolete a board or category etc, does not mean that you cannot make the needed changes,fixes or additions to accommodate for these things. If a game has DLC come out more often then not you can easily separate that into a category for DLC and No-DLC and thus creating a equal way for both types of runs to happen as an example. If a game has content that after being cleared is not available or accessible before you would start the game again or fresh, more often then not you can easily separate for New Game and New Game+ respectively based on what the community would need or want at the time, and this also should factor in the evolution of said community and the game or activity it represents. While many people will not always agree which is an impossible task to ask for at least be tolerable to those that do or do not agree and like wise to the opposite effect, no one can be part of something if people feel hostile towards another. If the current mod team has not been working out removing them completely does not really help them learn, but perhaps allowing them to work with new people that may be more experienced or have different outlooks will help balance and allow for more positive interaction flow rather then stacking everything to a single or only a few individuals, REMEMBER you have a community to talk to you cannot always just talk amongst leadership because then who are you really advocating or representing for?

SmartkinSmartkin and IndiIndi like this. 
  SmartkinSmartkin

As a reply to Indi, my post only collects everything what happened and who was involved in the situation and how it all played out, no attempt was made to make anyone mentioned at fault.

Sharing my bits of thoughts on the entire situation, I have mixed feelings about what happened. You can even consider an entire community failing at handling the situation properly here. Mods and admins making decisions that should have been made and discussed with a community as its entirety. Others miscommunicating with everyone else, making discussions a complete mess. All of that created a very unfriendly and uncomfortable atmosphere around, which as a result led to this discussion existing. I believe that the community can still be united but I suggest the entire community be as one for once and discuss it together. To decide on who will represent us in each of the games: the original, 012 and NT. No talking behind the scenes, no witch hunting, no backstabing, just a friendly conversation between the memebers of the community.

MASHMASH and IndiIndi like this. 
  MASHMASH
(edited: )

I am not against this idea tho if any of the current ones are still active enough with the game and or willing to step back if they are still wanting to take interest in working with the community then thats fine. I don't really like self nominations entirely But I would like to see more headway being done with NT as the game is picking up on updates and would like to see it done with the community with someone or even a team that is actively working on related stuff that is useful for the community.

I cannot vouch for any other games in the Series as I have no interest in them as a runner nor do I know who would be the best fit so its up to the runners of those games to figure it Out I believe as a community should. It's a bit different when you start a community but at some-point things do switch over I've been there and done that, but this is what drives continued growth and interest as long as things keep moving forward with the Community leads then things will be fine if their own interest or activity if minimal there's no shame in appointing someone else to take over while you focus on other things or perhaps come back when ready to be more active in the community.

Leonis07Leonis07 likes this. 
  0megaPhenix0megaPhenix
(edited: )

To follow up on Shinoda's post, for the leaderboard mods, I think it'd be nice to have 2 people per game, just in case one is busy with life/work/etc.

For DFF, the most knowledgeable players are Lenophis, Leonis, Mizzow and me. I haven't heard about Leno since we decided to split the community, he seemed to still be interested in the game though, so I don't know whether he would like to resume his mod role. For 012, I have no clue, I think Leonis put some work in the run a while back, but in general, there hasn't been a lot of progress for that run iirc, so I can't really say, so I have no issues with the current mod(s) keeping their place, as far as I am concerned. For NT, the game is still very young, the speedrun even more, but MASH and Ultronimus are the ones that have put some thoughts and done several runs so far, so my suggestion would be to make them the NT mods.

Leonis07Leonis07 likes this. 
  UltronimusUltronimus

Not much else I can add to the primary discussion that hasn't been said already. However, I can say I'd be fine with being a mod for NT alongside MASH to help get that off the ground/keep it going. We're both pretty active and communicate fairly frequently so I can see it working out in the long run.

Leonis07Leonis07 likes this. 
  MizzowMizzow
(edited: )

Hello team. I'm going to keep things short as to not just repeat what has been said already.

I just want to play the damn game. I felt like I found a right wee gem when I was introduced to Dissidia Speedrunning (around September 2017). But honestly the atomosphere within the community was pretty "us and them", would be the best way to put it. It generally just wasn't a place that made me want to put in any input or effort, so I just got on with runs. Since then I've had interactions in my chat with other runners who were always very welcoming and helpful, which kinda made me rethink why the discord community was pretty "dead", which for the most part has been covered above.

Something I want everyone here to keep in mind. Regardless of the size of a community. It will move on. Whether you are a viewer, a runner or a community leader, at some point those exact people are going to change. Nothing is ever set in stone, which is the way things should be. Viewers will move on. A runner today might be a viewer tomorrow. A community leader might move to another game or whatever, at which point that place will be taken by another. That doesn't make you irrelevant or unwelcome to that community anymore. Just ask Mash who has been in this exact situation with Nier.

We should always be open to the idea of change. It is the only way anything will ever move forward. Whether it be a change of leadership or a rule change to a category, or even a new category being introduced, but that is up to each of us to come to these decisions. Hopefully for the better.

Something I will say though. The game is not going to get any bigger or more popular with the way it is now. As much as recently there was an "attempt" at some form of community day, it should be an eye opener at how and more importantly "why" that fell through. I for one hope to bring Dissidia to a bigger stage, either personally with some marathon submittions or help other runners improve their game so they might feel more comfortable with doing it themselves.

This split in the community has not been all bad though, and we should not be seeing it that way. Quite frankly, I've had great fun within the new Discord. It is such a fresh atomosphere where everyone is on an even playing field. Topics and opinions are discussed as easily as a casual conversation with your mates is, and this is the way we should ALL be with each other. For christ team we are adults at the end of the day. Pull yourselves together.

As a final note, I will refer back to my opening statement, I just want to run the damn game. But if anyone has an idea, or wants me involved, you just need to ask. In the meantime though, I'm gonna keep doing what I've been doing, playing the damn video game.

MASHMASH and Leonis07Leonis07 like this. 
  IndiIndi

I quickly wanna follow up on Smartkin's Reply to me first. I totally understand why those pictures and conversations whee posted but I posted them for the same reason. These where things that happend aswell and explained why some things or reactions happend like they did. Allthough I have to say by reading all those it seems very much that it was all my fault, which again I refuse to admit cause as you said "You can even consider an entire community failing at handling the situation properly here."
I already said that I learned my lesson and it would be fair to at least giving me or any of the other admins a 2nd chance. No matter who will be the new mods/admins those people should at least work together aswell in fact everyone should be able to work with the rest, which will be difficult when people take personal issues into "relationships" likes this.

Anyways 2 people per LB (for now) seems good. But I feel like an open discussions is more appropriate as there have happend to much talking behind the backs already. Personally I feel like that MLSTRM and/or Deln should have the final word or at least a major voice as it is in their interest to have people on the Boards who will avoid future dramas that might drag them in again.

For NT I can defntly agree on MASH. I just created the LB back in the days to "secure" it and when I was thinking the game is anywhere similiar to the original ones. That doesnt mean I wont run it, but Mash seems capable of doint it. He should interest and good ideas.

For 012 there is only Shinoda and I dont see a reason to put him down. As he has done a pretty good job so far. No Drama on the 012 LB OpieOP

As for DFF (and I'm gonna "ignore" Crrool and Leno in this discussion on purpose as they havent said anyhing and I wont force them) I already apologized and made clear that I did mistakes (so did we all, allthough not everyone apologized). I'm giving everyone a second chance but so do I expect the same from you. Which is was I still think I'm a good choice for this. Especially since I dont see where people coming from when they say "He has absoloutly zero knowledge of the game" No one is perfect. And if this is the first criteria for people to be mod than there are enough other games where we can also discuss about that "problem". In anycase I still wanna/should be Mod for this. As for a second person I personally could imagine working with either Smartkin or maybe Mizzow. Smartkin simple cause he was the first person ever and Mizzow cause II feel like it could work very well. Not to mention that he is a very good runner OpieOP

But no matter who it will be we should defntly have only 1 Discord (the original one cause that one is already properly set up) and no more talking behind the backs. We dont have to be the best friends but as many people said "We are all adults!". So no talking behind the backs , no childish behavior. If things got decided (fair and square) just accept them if the rest does aswell. And no sneaky groups behind someones back. We are supposed to be a community and not a 3rd grade school class where there are mutiple small groups and everyone doing their own stuff!

I mean if we learned one thing than that we should work together and not against each other.

MASHMASH likes this. 
  MASHMASH
(edited: )

I do purpose tha the current mods that are are active can remain as mods but I would suggest that they probably become normal mods and a more a more active person on the specific games be put into super mod role to keep things moving.

As for the discord I would probably suggest we keep the original discord but we set up the main mods as established leads that can work together to maintain it as well.
We can if needed hand the server to someone that will remain active till the time they would need to pass it as well.

The original server I think could use a bit of work still but it is more established should we continue to allow positive change for us all.

Side note that I just finished going through the same process with Automata community so keeping things focused and In hands of the new blood that is active is the best way to keep things motivated going forward.

Either way the fresh server would allow us to start clean and move forward together. Just need to work together on the same level and understanding at bare minimum.

 
  0megaPhenix0megaPhenix

Okay. So I'm not supposed to witch hunt, but I need to adress specific points from IDP's message. I'll be as civil as I can.

First concerning the discord. It's already been said multiple times, but this message will compile my thoughts. We decided to part ways from the old channel because of the bad atmosphere, and how things were handled. I'm going to speak for myself, I think others agree, but the whole idea behind the old discord was: "We admins are going to have a discussion in the admin channel, and we'll come up with what we think is best. Don't contest our choices". Pretty much what Mizzow said. Which I find despicable. Sure the community discussion that happened i don't remember when was a nice change, but it was too little too late. As for the argument that the old discord is already set up, the new discord is being built and refined. And to be honest, there has been more discussions there than there has been in the past 2-3 months on the old channel. And sadly, it's precisely because of childishness that the core runners have decided to work together on the side of the old discord, because it wasn't worth it to do it there.

The goal with the new discord is that everyone has a say, which wasn't the case back then. I am going to go back, once again, to the precustomize ruling that was handle in the dumbest way possible, following this idea of "admins have the final word, even tho one of them hasn't touched the game in god knows how many years, and all the active runners but the other admin disagree with that rule". So yeah, we are getting started with the new place, but there won't be authority abuses like there were before, in the sole interest of the game/community. And I think that's a much better environment that the old discord. Everybody is free to join whatever channel, however the new discord is where you will find runners since most of them joined it, as well as a community in a much better shape. And that's why I won't come back, I sincerely don't have time to waste figuring out how people think and not stepping on people's toes, and engaging or being in the middle of a clash of egoes. The new discord starts from new, no drama, everyone is on an even playing field, we won't have admins pulling rules out of nowhere with no discussion, and preventing the other people from saying GG to a person that beat a WR held by an admin, which happened twice.

Following on that last thought... Concerning mods, I said what I had to say for NT and 012. When it comes down to DFF, however, I don't think IndDragPack should retain his role, either as a community admin (which won't matter if he choses to join the new discord, and he is more than welcome to do so) or an LB admin. No witch hunt, just being honest with my feelings, and being civil while stating facts. You've apologized, IndDragPack, concerning your past behavior, and I accept those apologies. Nevertheless, in the past, you have shown consistent propensity to going full tilt and behaving like anything but an adult when people challenge you, either your speedrun times or your authority as a community admin. Which is absolutely unacceptable, especially from a mod. And the fact that you are saying "we mustn't behave like children" is quite surprising considering what happened time and time again. Once again, you've apologized, and this is nice, but I work on a first impression basis. Nothing tells me it won't be the same all over again. Finally, when it comes down to knowledge of the game, I am sad to say that it is indeed a problem. And it's not because other communities may have the same issue that we cannot have the most relevant people handle the LB. I won't go into details concerning specific points, if you wish for me to do so, either here or via PM, I'm more than willing to oblige, I will just say that in terms of knowledge, for run verification and rules definition, you are not fit for the role. I hold no grudge against you, or rather the grudge I felt when I posted my last message on the old discord faded somewhat. I'm just saying how I feel, in the sole interest of the community. You are free to join us on the new channel if you wish to.

As to whom should be DFF LB admins, the four people I mentioned earlier are fine by me, I don't really care.

Just as a final note, I may appear blunt, but the goal of this forum is to have an open discussion. So yeah, I am speaking my mind, because it would be a waste of time and energy to start with the same issues. What I want is play the game, share what I know, improve my PBs/WRs. Simple as that. And the cancerous environment of the old discord prevents me from doing so.

Leonis07Leonis07, SmartkinSmartkin and MASHMASH like this. 
  MASHMASH

Where ever we end up I will follow the community where I see the most positive gain for myself and all. I am willing to put forth intial effort to help establish grounds to continue as as we are even in the new fresh discord troubled of the past aside provided we can at least agree to joining together regardless of our new or former roles. That said new Discord has had a very positive growth if activity since the part so I will remain as such provided it can still maintain that and I do hope others will work not only with myself what ever my role in the community will be but each other in the same way to stay positive and nurture our passions and motivations.

 
  ChrysAschrittChrysAschritt

I may be new to the Dissidia community, but I believe the debate has been healthy. I'm impartial and just want to run the game and think the new discord is probably the better idea since there isn't even any past messages for it. I just don't see a need to join another discord to add to my list, which I know I'm probably not the only one who shares that opinion. I'm going to echo sentiments I've seen here.

We should do what's best for the community and work together rather than all this. If it needs new mods, it needs new mods. If the current ones are actually willing to do better, than so be it. I just want to be able to have fun, enjoy the game, and talk about things with people who run the game. If people can't have fun and it becomes super serious and job like, why would people continue?

I mean, I at least speedrun because I enjoy it. That's just me. I'll excuse myself.

Leonis07Leonis07 and MASHMASH like this. 
  IndiIndi
(edited: )

I'm really glad to see that someone taking my apologize allthough I fail to see the other part but whatever.

As for the fact that there was "no activity" on the old discord. Of course cause you guys "left". In any case I don't force anyone to come back or go them wherever they want. But if you say you won't come back I have to ask why you are still there ?

About the no knowledge: I still have no idea where you are coming from and I don't have to but If i wanna learn something about the game and a runner doesn't tell me or anyone else then this ain't going to work. Which is why Leo especially because of his behavior is not better for this job than I'm (and I don't care about other mod experiences but I made my points clear why the pictures).
As for other mods you blaming Crrool for not have touched the game in years but so did Lenophis. Crrool at least was present during discussions. Leno just had no the time or the need. The problem you guys having is you feel hurted and you feel you deserve the job better than I do. Problem though: You don't think objective. Which is why this whole mutiny even Started.

The precustom rule: if it wouldn't have been for one of you guys this whole discussion never came up in any case we are talking about 3 seconds. If you are still blaming us for making a decision for something that short than I don't know what's wrong with you guys ?
Let me explain once again we could allowed skipping text boxes but banning equipment which is weird as it happens in the same place. So either banning or allowing both. Allowing it would give you the option to equip before the run which is feel like is a very important part of the run (or st least should be)

At this point the whole discussion is going in circles. So at this point Mlstrm and Deln should give their voice about this.

 
  MizzowMizzow
(edited: )

Hello team.

Couple of things. While I was not around for this "precustomisation" rule discussion. I will say a few things in regards to it.

1) It seems that from every angle, there is an agreement that this was handled poorly. While yes I cannot comment specifically on it (due to not being around at the time), I would rather see everyone coming forward with how to RESOLVE this kind of thing happening again rather than just constantly bringing it up.

2) Regarding this rule in general, purely looking at the effect it had on actually RUNNING the game, I will say that I do agree with the final decision.

3) However, and I will stress this quite a bit. (Story time) When I was new to Dissidia speedrunning, I started with Zidane, but I was interested in running other characters, hence I watched the top 2 runs at the time for Cloud. I genuinely was confused at the absence of the menu help popups and that the characters were already pre-equipped with their alternative costumes. I could clearly see in the rules that "precustomisation" was not allowed so you can see why this was an issue for me as a new runner.
At the time I was in talks with Leo (due to him being the one who introduced me to this), who kindy brought it up in the Discord on my behalf (I believe I was in work at the time), and I believe even mentioned me by name as to who was asking. Now this is were I'm going to bring up a very important point in all of this. The following communication in the discussion, was ridiculous. Regardless of who is asking, whether they were there for a change or even part of the actual discussion. A response and following conversation (if needed) should always be handled with patience and care from both parties.
But this highlights the main issue I'm bringing up, communication. Yes while it was in the rules that precustomisation is not allowed, it conflicted with the visable runs on the Leaderboard, with at least the top 2 times being from before this rule change and hence showing the confliction. Now while I'm all fair for the arguement of "there are not many times on the board and we really don't want to get rid of them to further reduce numbers", or "literally 99% of the run that is legitimate should not be punished", or something similar. There was genuinely no information to convey this to a new runner (or returning one). Now I'm going to suggest a very simple fix to this: Within the rules, have a link to an explaination of this rule and the reasons behind its change, along with the description of now "invalid" runs referncing back to this specific rule change. At the time of posting, these specific videos in question, the first by Shin states "Mod edit: Retimed due to different timing method". Now lets be honest, this tells us nothing. What different method was used? In what way does this change the time? (yes I can clearly see there is a 3 second difference between the split timing and LB timing but that doesnt TELL me anything). How much time does this change the run by? Also on the second video in question (I've only ever checked the top 2 at the time), there is literally nothing at all! Just a 3 second variance again between the Split timing and the LB timing.
This was incredibly confusing for myself as a new runner, to which after witnessing the way the query was handled in the Discord, completely turned me away from ever wanting to be a part of it. As a side note, lets not even pretend that the time difference from this rule change is 2-3 seconds. I've timed that menu myself being at least a 4 seconds on emulator, and I have fantastic mashing speed.

In regards to Discord, I believe that we would be better cutting our losses and starting fresh. Like I've said in my previous post, I'm personally having a great time within the new one. Which might be exactly what we ALL need to just come around to, the idea of just starting anew and working up from there. But thats just up opinion.

To finish up, if we are going to resort to petty pot shots then it would seem it is time to wrap things up here. Quite frankly I'm bored of the drama and just want to run the damn game.

Leonis07Leonis07 and SmartkinSmartkin like this. 
  0megaPhenix0megaPhenix

"About the no knowledge: I still have no idea where you are coming from and I don't have to but If i wanna learn something about the game and a runner doesn't tell me or anyone else then this ain't going to work."

When did you ever ask anything about the game, or seek for help? If you are referring to the "press start button to skip battle results", I highly encourage you to go back on the old discord, because before there was drama with Leo iirc about that, it was said how to do it a few weeks/months before, and you took part in the discussion, so you knew (and forgot probably). I only recall two instances when you asked me something DFF related, first time was when you asked if I had notes for Squall, which I still don't have, and second was about which ability with Squall I used to manipulate the AI, to which I answered it wasn't on ability in particular, just harassing the AI into not being able to act. Then, since you started to play seriously with Firion, did you ever ask anything about that character, or how to improve your time? Nope. And that was way before the mutiny.

Furthermore, since you do not see where I am coming from, let me explain. When I joined the game, the only any% time was Smartkin's, with Cloud. I said that Cloud was not a good pick, because he is one if not the lowest-tiered character in the game, both for pve and pvp. When I said that, I was confronted with hostility from you, saying that Squall had no good abilities, that Omnislash v5 was amazing, yaddi yadda. And that happened in 2017, the game had been out for more than 8 years at that point, and yet you didn't experiment with other characters, blindly following Smartkin's notes. Then came out the discussion about Chaos, I said that the boss wasn't hard, and you couldn't accept that. Just go back to the discord and check your reaction... I am not questioning your skill of the game, but your knowledge. And that is the important point in the matter at hand.

As for Leno, as soon as I posted the original message of us going away in january, like 20 minutes after that, he asked me about the new discord. So he was still interested in the game, and most likely wanted to be part of the new community.

Finally, for the precustom, it's not what the rule intails, it the way it was handled. I won't repeat myself once again. Out of the people that were involved in the discussion and still played the game, 3 people (Leonis, Smartkin and myself) thought one thing, you, the admin, thought otherwise, and your decision came on top in the end. Whether it's about 3 seconds (which is much more than 3 seconds in some cases, so adding 3 seconds to runs already in place was an completely arbitrary decision taken with no imput from the community) or 20 minutes, it's the same.

Anyways, I am being objective when I say that there were problems ever since I joined the community. It's up to mlstrm and deln to sort things out, because as you say, this is getting nowhere.

Leonis07Leonis07 and SmartkinSmartkin like this. 
  IndiIndi
(edited: )

@ Mizzow: I understand that it confused you. The point for my reaction was simply beeing that we had that discussion before and we told everyone why we did what we did even for the old runs. And Leo should have known and could have told you instead of bringing it up again. Guaranteed I wasn't aware that it was one of my runs. Happens but I did the consequences for it.

About the "mod comment" these are things you complain now and were never brought up before. So blaming me for that isn't fair. In any case most of the runs were retained cause everyone was using a different end time as stated before. I agree that you solution is good. But it was never a problem and I can't think of everything.

@ Omega: I think you actually starting if not intensify the witch hunt. Saying that I have no knowledge cause a casual discussion we had when no one was actually running the game is silly imo. Instead of blaming me you should be happy that you were right. And just because I never asked doesn't mean I don't have any knowledge in fact you never offered your help.

In anycase we will see what time will tell. But I know what I want and did. And some of those things were actually good which, ones again, no one mentions ?

 
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