Sup,

Recently, a new guy (Kurtz) has been running Fez with some very clever new strats. One of them is kinda weird, you can see it on this vod :

He is doing the Achievement Code twice, first time in the Zu village, and then a second time in the Lighthouse, during the chest opening animation of the last anticube at the top of the invisible platforms.

Here is his explanation that he told me by PM :

[quote]By popping an anticube, do you just mean triggering it to appear? The only time I trigger an anticube while opening a chest is near the very end, after I climb those invisible platforms (as far as I remember). Now, I did do something different this run than in previous runs which might answer the 33 cubes question (which totally surprised me as well): Last week when I was running the game, I would trigger the achievement code anticube the first time Gomez wakes up with his fez, still in the village. That's what I had seen on streams. Then I realized that the only reason you guys got that anticube then was so you could open the gate right after Dot stops talking, since the long jump to the treasure chest hadn't been discovered yet. I then saw on Toad's most recent WR run that he triggered (what I assume to be) the achievement code anticube at the same time as he was opening a chest, which let him collect both anticubes at the same time. Here's what I did during that most recent run: When I first got into the ancient town overworld (the place where the QR code room is), I triggered the QR Map anticube and the Achievement code anticube. I don't know all the places the QR Map code can be triggered, so I just do it there, since that's where I've seen it done. HOWEVER, when I climbed the invisible platforms and was opening that treasure chest, I did the Achievement code again, because I couldn't quite remember if I'd done it before, or if I had actually picked up the cube. I realized something was weird, because I got Dot's dialogue about collecting 32 cubes earlier than expected, but it didn't really click with me until I saw all 33 (!) at the end-of-game sequence. So, I don't really know what I did, but it seems like there might be some weird stuff going on with the Achievement code anticube.[/quote]

I see 2 things with that :

• It could be great, because it means you get an extra cube so you can get rid of one, potentially saving lots of time
• As there is this rule saying that cube duping is forbidden, well, to me it is technically some kind of cube duping, since you are doing the same code twice, getting 2 cubes where you should be able to get only one.

I want this to be discussed since it can lead to big changes in the route. Also, we need to figure out the exact circumstances of this, because it'll help to figure out if we classify this as dupe or not.

Hi guys, that's me. This is my first experience with speedrunning, so I have a lot to learn, but I hope we can find more ways to shave off seconds or even minutes from Fez.

Wivaiien and I have chatted about a few things, and I showed him some of the jump maneuvers I attempted in my run.

So I've been playing around with this for a while. I dont really have an opinion towards this discussion yet, as I'd personally really like to have something like this in the game (since it would be a big time-save), but also see that this could potential be a "dupe" and thus, banned.

Anyway, this is what I've found out by messing with this:

• Chests are irrelevant for this glitch/dupe/whatever. (Proven somewhat wrong in a later post)

• This probably has something to do with the QR Code Map. If you double-grab the QR Code and the Achievement Code, you'll reset the Achievement Code so that it's usable again.

• You're not able to reset the QR Code Map. I've tried a quadruple-grab this with this setup: Infinite Climb Room Gold Cube, Infinite Climb Code Cube, Achievement Cube, QR Code Cube. I've received all 4 Cubes (all the mentioned above) and was still able to use the Achievement Code to get the Cube (+1 more).

• You can kill the game even more with this, if you collect a cube while teleporting out to another main hub, but that's another topic.

I have yet to find more spots for this glitch/dupe to work, IF the cause is the double-grab itself and not the double-grab in combination with the QR Code Cube.

Edit: Reason is the QR Map https://twitter.com/Yauxo/status/635527086158036992 From that point of view, it looks more like a real glitch to me.

Damn, I just made an account here and you ninja-edited me.

¤back on topic¤

After searching a little in the game code:

• Spawn the QR cube
• Spawn the achievement cube
• Collect any cube (edit: any anticube)
• Respawn achievement cube (UNTESTED)

Bug in the source if anyone wants to take a look, just a snippet: https://gist.github.com/AngelDE98/6d4c162483c74f614ecc

Technical background: When spawning any cube, the game acknowledges "yup, cube X got spawned". When collecting the cube, it acknowledges "yup, cube X got collected". But as there's a small bug in the code ("else" where there should be none), when collecting the QR cube BUT the achievement cube is spawned, it simply "forgets" the achievement cube. You don't even need to collect both at once, just one of them. And after doing that, you're free to duplicate the achievement cube.

Let's just hope Renaud won't fix this... I hope... uh.

EDIT 2: Forgot 2 lines of code before the snippet I posted. Duh. "lost anticube" disproved. Have fun with your free anticube.

That new glitch/dupe would allow for one free anticube per anticube-chest.

Edit: The Arches Anticube Chest makes it crash though. The cubes spawn inside of you for some reason, which the game doesnt like, apparently.

Edit: This seems to work for EVERY TYPE OF CHEST. I've tried the Town Chest (the one next to the hub teleporter) and the Arches Key Chest (NOT the Arches Anticube) and it worked. So yea, this is basically a free cube for every chest we encounter. You also HAVE to double-grab, as the QR Cube disappears otherwise.

Edit: I lied. Apparently the Anticube Arches Chest works ... But not always. Maybe it's because I've waited, expecting it to crash. Anyway, here's a video of the glitch on different types of chests (Map, Key, Anticube)

[quote]So yea, this is basically a free cube for every chest we encounter.[/quote]

Using the same code over and over again, I call that a dupe, don't you think ? :/

I think that this is a result of a different kind of bug/glitch in the code, but it does kinda feel like a dupe ... meh :v

Assuming this would be banned, can anyone guess how much time this would save? Giving "Fez v1.1 clockless w/ dupes" as example.

I know I'm just a newcomer here, so I don't expect my opinion to have a lot of weight, but here are my thoughts:

The Fez speedrunning community gets to decide what to do, right? Even if it is a "dupe," it could be decided that duping is legal. I agree with Gyoo that using the same code multiple times = duping. But is that really a bad thing?

In our opinion, what does it take to do a Fez any% run? Does that necessarily involve getting 32 cubes? Let's say for example that someone found a way to clip through the door to the Stargate, and could finish the game with 16 cubes. Would that be legal? Let's say we discover that Wivaiien's teleport weirdness let us teleport to Zu City. Would that be legal? In my opinion, just because something isn't intended by the code doesn't mean it should be illegal for the any% run. If that were the case, then long jumping to the first chest before getting the Fez should be illegal, right? That clearly isn't intended, but it's allowed because there's currently no rule against it.

The cube duping in this case seems contained: you obtain a "bonus" cube when you complete some other action (opening a chest). It's not as if someone is manipulating game code to spawn 30 cubes right from the start. It's different from the non-clockless run as well, because it doesn't rely on anything outside of the game itself. Running Fez any% with this new technique would certainly change the route, and would certainly make the route shorter, by the order of minutes. It also changes priorities for the route: rooms with chests become much more valuable, but at the end of the day the goal is still 32 cubes as fast as possible.

I also think it's very much in the spirit of the game. Gomez produces anticubes, which come from an alternate dimension, out of thin air. I don't think a few more magic cubes is unreasonable.

That being said, if people are adamant that duping shouldn't be in the run, it would just distinguish between any% glitched and any% glitchless. We would still have to decide if the pre-fez long jump, etc. count as glitches though.

I think the main concern about it being a dupe is that we have already banned a dupe (QR Room Dupe). Since this is pretty similar as to what it does (giving multiple cubes out of one expected/intended), it has to be discussed.

Also, I think that I'll probably look for a route with the dupes anyways, whether it'll be banned or not. Im always in awe whenever there's a new kind of glitch found in any kind of game; Having this found in a game I run, I'd just love to use and abuse it.

Edit as answer for post below (I dont want to post for a short answer): I dont know, all of that was before I started running.

Out of curiosity, what was it that led to the past decision to ban duping?

It was way before I started running the game, so I don't exactly know. I'm the oldest "active" runner around here, but when I picked it it was already there, same thing for the clock. However, I know what's going on with the clock ^^

The kind of duping I remember was something like, you get an anticube somewhere, but if you quit the game and restart, you can get the anticube again and again and again. So it was pretty strong, also required to quit the game. If this is the reason why it was banned (somethng similar to clock room, "doing something outside of the game"), then we could agree that this kind of dupe can be allowed since it's nothing else than a glitch that happens 100% ingame, after all.

I agree that rule can also be made to be changed after some new discovery is done. That's why it's important to talk with most people, even new heads' opinion counts.

After a night of reflection, here's my opinion : we should test this, try to route it and optimize it, see how much it can save. If it's really too different from the current any% clockless (however faster), then the new route will become the new any%, but we should keep the current any% somewhere. I'll help with that whenever I can, this weekend at the latest.

I don't think current Any% should be made separate if the new dupe thing is allowed. I'm all for whatever's faster, but making it a separate category would just be silly IMO.

Hey,

This trick apparently makes you able to create some cubes over and over, and why should we do that. I mean, I want to go fast, but I don't want to skip the entire game by doing the two same codes untill I got 32 cubes, because it's not fun.

My opinion on this glitch is it's still a cool trick and you can destroy the game with it, but because of that, we should make another category.

Well, I think it seals the deal...

Well, I didnt know it was endless. As far as I've tested it, whenever I tried to get the QR and Achievement Cube together, the QR wouldve been set as "used", making it unable to dupe that.

Does the chest activate this even more weird behaviour? Also, which cube did you call first?

Edit: Calling the QR Code first and the Achievement Code while the QR Code appears made it so that I could spawn unlimited cubes :v Just make sure that one of the cubes isnt moving inside of the other.

TL;DR: Cool glitch. Duping like this is Forbidden in the current routes.

This is clearly duping and forbidden in the existing categories.

This was decided LOOOOOOOOOONG before me and gyoo started running this game, as there was a previous method of duping cubes, and it wasn't much different from this method. The game lost track of you collecting a cube and you could spawn it again. Duping cubes just makes the run silly and not interesting. That isn't to say a category couldn't be made where that is allowed, but for the main ones it isn't. My opinion on making a category just for this is, no way. I think it's a cool glitch to show off, but it doesn't need a whole new category. We have plenty already, no need to bloat it further.

There is only one spot in the game where we allow collection of a "duplicate cube" and that is the qr room cube. The reasoning behind this being allowed is because a cube would normally be obtainable in ONE of the two spots, we just happen to be able to get a cube in BOTH. This glitch adds to the run and doesn't negatively impact it. Also, it can only be done once to my knowledge. Now, if you guys find that it can also be done infinitely, then we may have to have a talk about it.

The Anticube in the QR Room (abandoned Town) spawns up pretty high and I dont think that we'd be able to doublegrab it together with the QR Map. I dont know about the second QR Room though.

Also, while I was all for it as we found out that it can be duplicated via chests, Im all against it now, since that endless dupe is kinda lame. It'd be nice to have a theory run though.

Doublepost

So I made a theory run for fun, basically going straight for the QR Map and duping Cubes whenever possible without taking any extra cubes that MIGHT be faster (dupe -> change room -> dupe -> change room) with a time of 23:53 RTA and 23:14 IGT. Scrap off maybe 2-5 or so minutes because I derped alot and had to reenter rooms after entering the code wrong.

I've also learned that if you cant call the QR Cube anymore, your menu doesnt work (it just flicks right back to the game). BUT, as soon as youve flicked the menu, the QR Cube can be called again and ... eh, I guess that makes the glitch fool-proof. Cut that, I guess. I just somehow killed my start menu and map screen. Cant open it at all without restarting the game.

Triplepost, Im not even sorry.

You know, just in case you want to beat the game in a few minutes if you have to go somewhere really quick. So, can we call that ban official now?

Four: -> Get a teleporter which you can use by pressing up -> Spawn any Cube (works with normal cubes as well) -> Press Up to activate teleporter sequence -> Teleporter gravity thing will make you collect the Cube. While this happens, input Achievement Code. -> When Achievement Code is entered, spam A to be released from the teleport gravity. -> By doing nothing, teleporter gravity will catch you again and drag you into the second cube youve spawned -> Game freaks out and gives you the achievement cube over and over again

Took me 5 minutes to figure out a route, this game could now be beaten in less than 15 minutes.

After seeing all the evidence, I think I agree with most everyone that 1. Duping with almost no limitation is no longer Fez, and 2. It would be silly to make a separate category (outside of a "novelty" category). Congrats to Wivaiien for breaking the game so hard.

On a separate note, grabbing a cube while entering a teleporter might still be promising for other glitches.

Yeah, having a new categry for such a thing is pointless. Also, good thing that we all agree on banning this because this wouldn't be a speedrun anymore, almost.

When you say there might be other glitches with the teleporter, what are you thinking about ?

When taking the teleporter and grabbing a cube, it seems that that lets you move Gomez around when the game is supposed to be doing something else. I wonder how limited Gomez's movement is during that state.

Like, what can we interact with when he's supposed to be being teleported? Can you open doors? Can you take other teleporters? (I remember Wivaiien tried this during his experiment stream Sunday, but I don't remember the result.) Anything that would cancel cutscenes from having to play all the way out would save a lot of time during like cinematic introductions to areas or taking teleporters. If we could find some way to regain control of Gomez while cutscenes are playing, that would be huge.