Hi mods,

Thanks for accepting my run, although it is not any%. Any way to create a new category?

Your run was glitchless, right?

Any% Glitchess is still Any% :P But I guess it still deserves another category too, if "Glitchless" can be easily and agreeably defined.

Glitchless yes, but also meeting the "foxiest of hounds" criteria on the "give me deus ex" difficulty. I wouldn't say it is any%. Saying that, it seems a few seconds of footage are missing from the stream, so I'll have to do it again, anyway.

Difficulty shouldn't matter as much (people play on whatever difficulty they like when they run), foxiest of the hounds also seems kinda not important unless more people really wanna run it, I dunno. Technically it'd be a Any% Glitchless run :/

@DrTChops: Not quite sure why you're trying to act like a patronising dick, but I'm sure you have your reasons. You don't seem to have a problem with slapping "world record" on your videos when you can either; I don't think any speed runner does given that's kind of the point. Do you? :)

Keyboard warriors.

Yoho,

I agree with Glitchless it can be a category since it is everywhere a category, just boring but that is another thing. :P

About the foxiest of hound / Give me deus ex thing I wouldn't say that this needs to be a category, then everyone can just do a different difficulty and say that it is any% on Hard/Easy/Middle which doesn't even make anything different (Unless there are damage boost which can be done only on one difficulty)

If it would be something absolute crazy like Absolute Zero% I would say it would be worth a category since, you are making a really hard challenge combined, and not just put yourself invisible most of the time. (AZ = No takedowns, No augmentations, No items, 100% Ghost, GMDE)

But in general, run the category you like to do and how you wanna do it, nobody is stopping you from that, just don't think we need 10 any% categories on the leaderboards. :P

Best wishes, Heinki

@DrTChops: Well, after trying to contribute what I can here to help others (not much I know), submitting my own run according to the rules, and asking for a very common category, I didn't expect to have a mod move the goal posts based on his own personal feelings about what boring crap the run is with the obvious intention of trying to publicly embarrass me about it. If you think it's "just using cloak more" then let's see you do it, especially without changing strats and routes for power management. And show me how this applies to knocking out a dozen guards quickly in the last mission.

@Heinki: Appreciate the better way you handled this. Glitchless may be boring to you, but not everyone else. I prefer watching these runs personally (e.g. The Last of Us). Absolute Zero% is possible, but spending more time in vents would be even more boring, I suspect. Wasn't aware two categories (any% and glitchless) could so easily add up to 10.

Still, you are both right - it is meant to be just for fun. Since panties are getting twisted, go ahead and remove the "glitchless" category from the boards and my run with it. I am sure I can cope just fine without formal verification to slap "WORLD RECORD!!!!!!!" on my videos (which will easily be smashed by PC players, anyway) :P

Don't worry about the few seconds that are missing from the vod. I don't think glitchless will be very competitive, but there are good enough reasons to include it as a category. Foxiest has never been a separate category, except if you look at Absolute Zero, which qualifies as a low% category.

Glitchless seems more like a kinda faster Playthrough, I just don't see the competitive aspect of that and the need to keep track of it.

Difficulty and ghost should absolutely not be a thing. The categories would be exactly the same, because essentially you can use ghost regardless of the "category" (Ghost/No Ghost). We are in no need to create 10 categories of the same run^^

Heya carlduff,

Yeah I meaned that the Glitchless thing is just boring imo, If you like it then that is good! I didn't mean to offend you or anything, just that it is not something for me. :P

The Glitchless category should be a thing and can be a thing, I don't see a problem with that, how many people will run it, nobody knows, but it is still a nice thing to be there.

Absolute Zero% was low% indeed, I forgot about that fact in this case.

But as said before, run what you like, enjoy it and have fun, this is not some company business were you have to make wins and please your clients. :P

best wishes, Heinki

@cookieforu: The same could be argued for exploiting glitches and OoB; viewers moan all the time about these tactics not constituting "proper runs". I don't feel that way, but (again) I do enjoy watching runners go through games "properly" as fast as possible (it is hard to follow what is going on with some any% runs). Still, am new to the speedrunning "community" so if glitches are what it's all about, so be it.

You can run whatever you want to run. However as previous people said while glitchless could be a seperate category I dont see how the other bits add something to the run to differentiate from glitchless any %. Also about glitchless and glitched speedruns overall how "enjoyable" the run is depends on the game. Some games are very boring to watch glitchless because they are quite often a fast casual playthrough while other games for example offer ai manipulation, very precise movement and inputs in order to go fast what often looks more interesting. In this run it doesnt add a lot of movement tech outside of the icarus dash. I would go so far and compare a glitchless run of Mankind Divided with a glitchless run of Dishonored. It doesnt add anything that exiting to the run outside of not using glitches. However what it adds is more time on the timer. I support the category being a misc category. If you want to run it feel free to do it. However considering the amount of people actually running the game we shouldnt go any make a category for everything that is possible. This would otherwise end up in idk 100 categorys? Just take it as an example i could do a glitchless non lethal ghost run without icarus dash but with cloak and want this to be a unique category. I think you would agree that this is kinda dumb. It is still glitchless any % with restrictions i make for myself. If i enjoy doing it i can however still do it for fun but if i would submit this as a run I would still submit it as glitchless any %.

Best regards, Matse

@ Matse007: OK, I think I see what's going here. The point of the run I did has nothing to do with cloaking, dashing, particular tactics, etc - just "Foxiest of Hounds" criteria as fast as possible. Over-use of the cloak is nowhere near as interesting as AI manipulation - true - but the idea was to at least start with something and improve on that (i.e. less cloak, more dashing and risky strats, etc.). Early runs are usually less than impressive.

You might even be able to make a case for no detentions as a category, but the main issue with the category as you have it is that it's seemingly an arbitrary collection of modifiers. It's glitchless, but also hard difficulty and perfect stealth. Each one of those alone merits consideration. But together, it doesn't make any sense. What makes that particular combination better than the other 110 ways you could stack modifiers to make a new category?

I'm brand new here and first post (I'm mostly just an occasional spectator of streams and events), but I wanted to give my perspective on the matter. I think I understand both sides of the argument, and my stance on the matter is that glitchless makes perfect sense as its own category. Obviously, the entertainment value of one category vs another is mostly subjective, so I'm not going to comment on the merits of glitchless any% vs any%, but here's why I think glitchless is, by itself, deserving of its own category:

Getting a faster time in any game on any% has solely to do with cutting out as much as possible between the official starting state of the run to the official ending state of the run, abiding by community determined game-specific rules. I believe the primary contributing aspects to getting the fastest times (cutting the most time out between the start and end states) in this context should rest more heavily on the individual more so than it does on the strategy. I don't say this to say that strategy isn't a primary contributing aspect. In fact, I'd argue that strategy often ousts the individual. I just feel that a run is more impressive, the more opportunities are presented to show off the individual's skill - mechanical or otherwise.

To this end, I would then argue that as glitches are discovered (which I admit is a very interesting aspect to the competitive nature of any% runs), the opportunities for the showcasing of individual skill gets marginalized in comparison to glitch execution. Now maybe you'll then argue that glitch execution is part of individual skill, and I would agree with you. But would you argue that there's more skill presented in a skip to ending credits glitch or through the endurance of skill testing gameplay under the scrutiny of potential mistakes within a large single sitting? I think most rational people would answer the latter, unless maybe the skip glitch is some convoluted execution like some SMW memory glitch or what not, which I personally think is more novelty than anything else.

In that regard, the more of the run time is determined by glitches, the more gameplay skill and even gameplay strategy is thrown away in favor of glitch execution skill. Maybe a game like DXMD really can't get much more refined without glitches. I'm not trying to make any argument against that, but I do believe that there are aspects of a glitchless run of DXMD that caters to not only mechanical skill and path planning, but also allows for resource management that glitches seem to make obsolete. Small choices like not using energy to dash even if you have a full bar, due to the nature of energy regen and dash cost for a particular segment limits the maximum dash use within that segment anyway, have more chances to matter. Strategy that involve taking much longer in non-obvious segments for resource gathering and/or non-traditional praxis spending to save maybe a few seconds in the long run is the type of competitive speedrun environment I find more compelling, and more opportunities for failure are then presented, therefore more opportunities for individual skill. And glitches pretty much pushes a lot of that aside. Or at least this is how I feel.

That being said, I do appreciate the skill and risks that the current OOB glitches present to the DXMD runs. I'm just writing in definitive support for official glitchless categorization. If no one runs it, then no one runs it I guess, but I think more people would if it were widely accepted as a major category.

Sorry for saying very little with so much text. I have trouble being concise and condensing my thoughts. I feel like I'm still not touching on the points in my mind.

Leave SMW out of this.

My apologies

I mean if you think it's worth correcting my perspective, I'd appreciate it. I'll put more effort into figuring out if there's a reason to post next time I think about contributing to discussion.

Alright. Everything you said makes sense to me, and I agree with basically everything you said, so I think I probably should've worded my post in a different manner. I also didn't notice the category already exists, but I was voicing my opinion on why I think it should exist, since previously in the thread, you had mentioned being open to having your mind changed on the matter - "An argument can be made for glitchless". That was the topic I was trying to contribute to, and that's why I saw reason to post. But I really do appreciate the feedback, so I'm glad you put in the time to make these clarifications.