Okay, because the Mr_Snawk 's last run has been rejected, the huge comunity around DMC have to talk about the farming during phases where the in-game timer is volontary by developers stoped.
My opinion First, reject the farming, means, for almost all my DMD runs that they should be rejected (to remind you, I kill Phantom up to ten times between mission 7 - 8 in order to retrieve the amount lost (SB Failed ...) during previous missions), because this is in DMD, even with all upgrade, the run is still very hard.
Second, for me, any thing you can do in the game without using additional hardware or software, like turbo controler or cheat, is expected by the devlopers, if they choosed to stop the timer, this is to complete some secret mission without impacting the mission rank.
Third, yes this is certainly boring to farm or seeing someone farming, but I'm sure, for other speedgame there is a farming session.
I see for now four differents solution about farming : Authorize, reject, create sub category or authorize with the Real-Timer.
Waiting for yours answers.
You said it all ( any thing you can do in the game without using additional hardware or software, like turbo controler or cheat ) for me farming is not a cheat or other, it's in the game, it's a other routing, so for me farming are ok, create a new category just for one run it's no't a good idea for me, because devil may cry haven't so much runner, for example the low% are no't popular so a new category isn't good for me. it's my opinion. i waiting other runner or the community to take a decision about this.
Right. I have to explain why this is not okay.
Developers stop the IGT, so suddenly it's okay if you spend as much time as you want to farm a currency that is necessary to make the run faster/more comfortable? That is not single segment. You're still playing the game and getting ahead. With this logic, you are also implying that it would be fine to sit in the beginning of Mission 8 until you had so many orbs that you could buy everything you need for the rest of the run. I mean, what stops you from simply farming for 30 minutes? You see how this doesn't pan out? I would have done this a year ago if it was actually a just and viable way of running the game. I appreciate your hard work Snawk, but this isn't a new route. Yami, I also apologize to you for not realizing that your DMD runs contain orb farming with the IGT stopped. This is something that I thought was generally avoided in all runs. It is abusing the IGT to get ahead. Very impressive times could be accomplished with this route, but I am completely against a timer stopping while you continue to play and get ahead.
Devil May Cry is a very hard game. Speedrunning it just makes it harder, and I bet your Sum of Best is much better than your pb. Just like mine is. Theoretically, Snawk, your time with the route I have already been using is achievable if you get more S ranks to use those Holy Waters you used, as well as a couple other strats. I would like to move forward with the upcoming release of the HD Version on PC/PS4/Xbox, make a rule that addresses this "orb-farming" method, and change this leaderboard to show these types of runs under a different Variable, while moving Low% to it's own Misc. Category. (To keep it clean but not lose Yami's run.)
Actualy, there is also another problem with categories, I explain me, if I take my runs, i'm alone to run this categorie (DMD LDK), because I'm running on PS3 with the PSN version, and every version use a different timing methode, (PS2 => loading time counts, HD => doesn't counts...), I think with the soon release it could be differrent (60 or 120 fps for example...), so I think we will have to split in more categories (like RE4 for example).
About farming, if you see the 100% DMD, runners are using the intermission to do some secret mission, or simplier during intermission 13 -14, I get back in the ship to get the untouchable, the limit of this restriction will be hard to define.
i don't see why for you it's not okay maxylobes It's a IGT abuse ok and ? it's in the game so i can use it i farm 10 times deathscythe like yami's farm 10 times phantom in DMD i just farm 2000 orbs, i don't need all of skills for my routing this is doesn't helpful the solution for you is the rebuild all of leaderboard ? and create a new category with farm autorized ? it's not a good solution for me
I have already talked with so many other speedrunners from many different communities/backgrounds with In-Game Timers. This blatantly goes against what a Single Segment speedrun is. Any% means you're beating the game as fast as possible. Meaning, you are not required to go back and sit around for as long as you please. You are required to GO BEAT THE GAME. The fact that you blatantly agree that you're abusing an In-Game Timer is just proof that this is not okay. I already gave you a great example of buying all of your skills/items early on by farming for as long as you want, and you tried to play it off with "i don't need all of those skills". Of course you do. They are vital parts of going fast in this game. You could use Vortex as you please, and have enough holy waters to get you through half the game already. Come on, man. How many examples do I have to give for you to just accept that this is wrong?
Both you and Yami will have your runs moved to a separate category during the leaderboard change. The solution is not the leaderboard change itself. The solution is to not farm orbs because the game conveniently stops the IGT. If the specific category asks you to backtrack in that section for a secret mission (100%), that is fine. You must fulfill the categories requirements, and the devs stop the IGT there. However, farming orbs after meeting said requirements is also against Single Segment. I will be setting up new rules to prevent this sort of things from happening in Any%, but the least I can do for you guys is set up a different category for these types of runs where Orb-Farming IS allowed. We have to be open-minded at these times. It's very important, especially if this new HD release does bring new runners to the scene.
As expected, we have a lot opinions, sorry, I'm just desapointed to see this great game and only three guys talking about rules, categories etc...
So, I understand you Maxy, and it's legitimate to desagree orb farming, but I just want to say you, why did you wait the Snawk's run to say that, I use this strat for a long time, I even already told you (but I thought there was Phantom too in normal mode) if you are late in orbs, you can kill Pantom between mission 7-8 in lion's room, never you answered me, this strat should be baned, or something like that.
Because no rule exists about farming, I want to accept the Snawk's run, and you can also accept it, because with the new release, you will get a better time easily, and even now, I know Maxy you can beat, with yours actual strats, Snawk's run. Or in worst case, if you totaly desagree (because don't want to lose WR, even for a short time) just set his run as a multi segmented. In any case add orbs-farming category would be ridiculous enough, if someone see and want to run this category, he will just farm 1 Million orbs and buy everything, so the run become a NG+.
About me and my runs, I will no longer run this version, so you can do what do you want, I have the best time in DMD but Kurozatou is better than me with or without orb farming, soon I will run the new release and I will apply this rule (Exept in 100%), also, before running the game, I will develop at least an LiveSplit Auto split with in-game time mission by mission and some other tools, like I did for Resident Evil 0 HD (no cheating, don't worry).
When you told me about farming that long long time ago, I was under the impression that IGT was still running. That's why I never brought it up. Over time, I had forgotten you used it in DMD runs, and realized on my own that the IGT stops in that segment. Again, I apologize for not realizing this sooner.
I still disagree with orb-farming in an Any% run, simply based on what Any% implies. Beating the game as fast as possible. Therefore, if there isn't a category for it, I am definitely putting runs using this method under Segmented. I care more about keeping Any% clean of IGT abuse, over my world record.
What exactly is the justification for using IGT? Because if it's just something like tradition then switching to real time seems like the most obvious solution, and I'd be willing to help out re-timing existing runs if you guys decide on that.
As for the other three solutions proposed by Yami, I have to agree with Maxy that allowing farming as it has been would be detrimental to the game moving forward. The precedent has also already been set by rejecting Snawk's run. However, if you are going to either reject or separate into subcategories, I think the rules for those divisions have to be very explicit given the potential for minor variations like Yami's example of grabbing the untouchable during mission 13-14 intermission. I'm personally inclined to be against creating the separate categories, just for the fact that the community is small enough as it is. And while I'm at it, imo defining rules for a speedrun based on "developer's intent" is way too arbitrary and nebulous, especially when it's not even glitchless.
Of course I don't even run this game myself, so feel free to disregard :v
Thanks for your answer Rasha, We will not re-time all runs because any version use a different in-game timer (loading counts in PS2, not at all on HD for example), so we would adapt this for each version, and IGT is more precise, anyway, that's not the question.
I think we will be forced to apply this rule, so any run using farming will be rejected, just for now accept the Snawk's run in segmented, and after the new release we will create new categories (depending of version, dificulty or completion) with an explicit rule about orb farming. As you said, it would be stupid to add subcategory because there is not enough runners, I'm already sad to see noone interested by low% or 100%.
About rule, if you see the Iraven's run (DMD 1:00:28), during the first mundus phase, I want to believe he was using a turbo controler, I don't remember for other runs, this is maybe because of PAL version, someone can check it.
Working on setting up some stuff so that we can move forward here. I don't want to discard any of these runs, so I have set up the leaderboard in a way that reflects all possible categories that use Orb Farming. Any% (O/F) for, Easy, Normal and DMD difficulties. I have discarded Hard, since nobody runs it. 100% runs have undeniably long sections of gameplay that don't go towards In-Game time. It would be silly to ban Orb-Farming in that case, so it will remain in that category. Easy (Auto) will remain, due to it having potential to be quite fast, despite the Automatic feature. It also already has some runs submitted. My reasoning behind leaving Hard behind for now is the fact that nobody runs it, at all. Probably due to the fact that it is the difficulty between the regular (recommended), and the hardest that the game provides. The lowest (or standard) and hardest difficulties are usually the two most interesting in speedrunning. That is why Easy will stay and Hard will be left off the leaderboard. (Until someone actually routes it in some way and does a run.)
EDIT as of March 24th: All main categories and Variables have been switched to officially reform the boards according to the info I've already provided above. Any%, Any% O/F, 100%, and Low% have their own Main Categories, with the variables being Difficulty and Costume. It was a ton of confusing work to get the boards like this, so I hope everyone is happy with it.
