Forums  /  Donkey Kong Jr.  /  livelyracoons run and button mapping
  Toad22484Toad22484

Hello everyone,

The current WR held by livelyraccoon has all the inputs set normally on a controller but also 2 additionally added inputs again (left and right are added as buttons as well for going across the vines faster).

What are your opinions on this? My first thoughts are this cannot be done on console so right away it should not be allowed. I have no qualms at all with emu usage and controllers as long as they run at the same speed and don't give any obvious advantages (like button mapping twice over for movement speed improvement). I think it's important to keep it as close as possible to how it can be done on console so it's a fair playing ground for everybody which is why turbo is pretty much universally banned.

The problem is if stuff like this gets allowed then it opens a floodgate of possibilities. Mapping L+R to buttons means you can do L+R movement in games and tons of games are broken to all hell with this kind of movement.

Let me know what you all think. I would adamantly push towards not allowing anything like this because it gives a huge advantage to emu users, one that simply can't be done on console.

NMENME and WhiteHat94WhiteHat94 like this. 
  WhiteHat94WhiteHat94

I don't see how remapping extra buttons can be seen as anything other than cheating. Explicitly and knowingly adding double inputs to intentionally gain an advantage over console users seems to be a really shady practice. You can't do it on original hardware, it shouldn't be allowed.

sparkoversparkover likes this. 
  authorbluesauthorblues

Nothing was done surreptitiously, so terms like "cheating" and "shady" seem like needlessly charged language. Firstly, the buttons were not used to double mash, so this easily falls under the standard grey area that controller changes typically get treated with. In fact, we wouldn't be talking about this at all had lively not disclosed it, because things like this are easily hidden. I'm just suggesting that we talk about it objectively and avoid the sort of charged language that maligns him for no reason. He tried something and disclosed it as "accept this if its okay, reject if not".

This is complicated. Controller remapping is a nuanced issue. As I mentioned on the lengthy twitter thread, using any sort of USB controller that doesn't match the shape of the original controller, one-handed controllers, 3rd party controllers, all deal with this issue to one extent or another, obviously way less pronounced than this. Playing on keyboard, which has never been disallowed to my knowledge, deals with this issue.

I do take a bit of issue with the idea of the slippery slope. mcgrew brought up turbo, toad brought up L+R, as if those things are now allowed if buttons remapping is permitted, but we have always had fairly explicit wording forbidding these things in the past.

That all being said, I obviously understand and see the issues being raised. I'm happy to remove the time if this seems to be the consensus of other runners. I personally am indifferent toward it, as I was when I approved the run initially. I know plenty of people who can mash with either hand twice as fast as lively could with his right, so I don't think the WR is now put out of reach for other console runners. But I totally get the concern and I want to make sure that the final decision isn't just one that I made, but what makes sense in general.

JoshKeysJoshKeys likes this. 
  livelyraccoonlivelyraccoon

Quick note on the gameplay itself: I never use the two inputs for the same direction at the same time. While I mash circle/triangle (buttons for left and right) I'm not inputting anything on the dpad. Also left + right / up + down inputs are disabled and result in no input. I dunno if either of those two things needed clarification but I figured I'd clarify just in case.

In this thread and in the thread on twitter my actions have been described as "shady", "sketchy" and "cheating" which implies I was dishonest or attempting to break the rules and get away with it. This irks me quite a bit because it is so far from the truth. Before I started playing with this controller configuration I asked auth if he thought it was cheating. Then when I got the run I disclosed in the description on this site and on youtube what I had done.

If the consensus is that the run shouldn't be allowed then I'm alright with it, albeit a little frustrated. I'll flip my controller upside down and try to beat my run. Just please stop referring to me with such negative connotation.

Editing this in: I believe you can do something somewhat similar on the WiiVC version. A gamecube controller would be able to move with the stick and the dpad

 
  Toad22484Toad22484

I never meant to imply directly that you used it to cheat or to use L+R or anything of that nature so I apologize if it came off that way. This was more of an overall discussion of once allowing stuff like this how big of an advantage and how much it can be abused to get times in speedgames overall

With that being said I still don't like the idea of moving inputs to anywhere that isn't a dpad or using any controller that doubles up on inputs whether its WiiVC GC or anything else. It simply can't be done on the original hardware which is my main argument for any system and any game. The ability to mash directional input right handed is a crazy good advantage in games with dpad tapping that needs to go fast (such as dk jr of course) but games like Tetris would be infinitely easier with that much mash as well. Some people have a natural advantage to mash fast with the left arm or right arm but in either case I wouldn't advocate for switching inputs but rather hold the default controller in different ways to gain the advantage that you have (example: double mashing)

Again let me state that I don't want to question your skill or integrity of you as an individual livelyraccoon but rather the spirit of playing the games as closely as they were meant to be played. There's always going to be some jack ass out there that cheats and doesn't say anything and a few of those have been sniffed out and I do give you big time credit for coming out right away and putting it in your description that you added extra input buttons. The best I feel a situation like this would be resolved is having a separate emu category but again that leads to a different conversation.

To sum it up: I don't like the idea of moving your inputs on any controller, I feel it kind of defeats the spirit of the whole thing of everyones natural abilities pitted against each other on an even playing field. Thanks for all the responses everyone.

 
  livelyraccoonlivelyraccoon

Run is removed. To clarify, the second section of my post wasn't aimed at you Toad. I think you did a good job at creating a discussion instead of a witch hunt.

For anyone looking at this thread not knowing the context since the run is removed from the leaderboard, here's a link:

 
  Toad22484Toad22484

Thank you for understanding and approaching this with civility. I believe you have the utmost ability to get that 1:28 again and will probably do it very soon if you go for it again. I am 100% behind you in your hunt for this WR and look forward to seeing it happen again. I'm sorry if you felt singled out at all and gl on your future speed ventures.

 
  sparkoversparkover

Hello! I may have been the first person to say something was sketchy on the twitter thread. (What an odd introduction to make.)

I may have not fully understood the situation when I first heard of it so mostly I want to apologize if what I said came off the wrong way, or if I hurt you at all. I did not mean to imply that you are a sketchy person - in fact since you were very open about this it proves the opposite. What I meant was sketchy was the switching buttons around on a controller, and also something else which was being discussed which was the potential to switch to buttons that don't exist on the system.

I feel like Toad summarized the rest of how I feel very well so there probably isn't reason for me to add more, but please know that I had no intentions of a personal attack. Hopefully there are no hard feelings. Good luck with your future runs!

livelyraccoonlivelyraccoon likes this.